posted
There seems to be a lot of contradictory information on the net about them. Some sites say, for instance, that the Surak class (that long spike with a circle around it which attaches to the top of an inverted conning tower) is a "light cruiser" which implies modest dimensions, capabilities, complement etc. Others claim it's as big as, or bigger than, the D'Kyr (sic) type, which is called a 'combat cruiser' and is supposed to be really big and nasty compared to most other prequel ships. For myself, I'd consider anything loaded with weapons that can do interstellar travel to be a combat cruiser, so that's a fairly meaningless designation.
Decent pictures of these things are hard to come by. I've found a mesh of the D'Kyr in the mesh downloads section of scifi-meshes and there are plenty of low res screencaps around the place, but that's it.
The most interesting thing I've noticed is the apparent existence of a large tender docked inside the D'Kyr's ring. This seems to be part of the rationalisation for having the ring drive move as this lets the tender out. Can't find any good pictures that show the tender, though. It looks like one of those designs which they intended to make more use of in future (had they not been cancelled). Why else would they load it with such a gimmick/feature?
Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lurker Emeritus: For myself, I'd consider anything loaded with weapons that can do interstellar travel to be a combat cruiser, so that's a fairly meaningless designation.
The show agrees. On more than one occasion Archer referes to a "Vulcan Combat Cruiser", and we've seen both of the Vulcan ship designs described as such. So, it's more like a type designation than an actual class.
posted
Ah, cheers. I think I saw part of that page but didn't skim down far enough.
The sketch of the D'Kyr type credited to John Eaves (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/dkyr-sketch.jpg) is a nice one and is the clearest view of the 'support vessel' I've seen yet. It reminds me of the Oberth in a way, with the engine supports forming the primary connection between the hulls, and the lower hull is approximately the same shape. Could we spin this as an early inspiration for one of the Federations longest lasting designs?
I have to say, I'm very taken with the Surak. I will christen it the needle ship, because there's nothing else quite like it and this covers both variants. This is a nice picture: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/other/shuttle-vulcan.jpg Oh yeah. That does it for me. Very elegant and clean. You might even say logical. I dispute the criticisms based on engineering principles that argue about the single point of attachment for the ring. The Vulcans are a more advanced species. They have knowledge of physical laws and access to technologies that humans don't even know exist, or have barely heard of. Clearly there would be a good reason for this feature that confers some serious benefit. And what a statement it makes too! Look what we can do. You can't even guess how this is done and haven't divined the physical laws governing it, and we've built a starship based on those laws! So watch out, primitive species.
Speaking of confering benefit, I'm not so happy about the superfluous organic styling of the D'Kyr. External appearance is primarily governed by internal requirements. Why would the insides flow and curve like that?
Question: what purposes might the D'Kyr put it's support vessel to?
Registered: Jul 2006
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
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posted
The argument against the single connection point could also be used against the Constitution. Imagine the stresses applied to the pylons where they join the engine itself and at the secondary hull.
Looking at the Surak, ya have to wonder if the Vulcan who designed it was about to go thru Pon Farr.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
When we figured out that warp travel involved the nacelles PROJECTING a field that moved through space, rather than THRUSTING the whole ship itself, I became much more comfy with the notion that the whole ship is involved in the movement part. The nacelles are simply isolated from the main hull for safety purposes, or warp field dynamics, or whatever, rather than as a logical, gravitational centerline for propulsive thrust.
That said, I quite liked the D'kyr type. The ring moving could be to launch the auxiliary craft, or for landing purposes - it's not THAT large, and is vaguely aerodynamic. The little craft itself could be specifically for atmospheric ops of many kinds, as a landing craft, etc. There is no apparent shuttlebay on the D'kyr, so...
posted
Hmm. Ask a military pilot about docking his refueling probe with a tankers boom (please, no more pon farr jokes! ;-). Regarding the approach to the tanker, he'll mostly talk about solving angles and will tell you what a complete mess it's possible to get yourself in very easily if you don't keep your planning and manoeuvres as simple as possible (and thereby keep the convergence angles as few and as small as possible). And that's operating in a 3 dimensional space which has an Up and a Down and a horizon for reference. Try that outside a gravity well. Anything that makes docking simpler, easier and safer (as in less likely to hit bits of the mothership) is a good move.
This is one of the major gripes I've always had with Star Trek hangar arrangements. No pilot worth the name would ever consent to fly between, around or near two great big protruding nacelles on the end of two great long struts! NX-01 has about the best, safest hangar arrangement for a Federation ship I've seen yet. Plenty of unobstructed "airspace" below the vessel (the nacelles are pointing away from you), a nice flat underside, unlike later types in which the saucer bellies downwards, and because you would approach from behind, match course and velocity and creep up on the docking point, you have plenty of room to manoeuvre away if things go wrong.
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The only thing I don't like about the D'Kyr is the hull detail. Can't see a reason for the organic look. By contrast, the Surak has a smooth, functional hull surface. The Surak might also make a better warship design because of it's extremely minimal forward aspect, making it harder to see and harder to hit, although the D'Kyr's ability to stow it's warp ring could mean that the ring is better protected in a fight.
However, based on that sketch, I don't see how the D'Kyr's support ship could be a lander. The upper hull seems to project very far forward so that any nose landing gear would have to be extremely long. It looks unbalanced.
One thought I had was that, given the icy relations with the Andorians (pun intended), the D'Kyr could be stationed at remote outposts or on distant patrol routes for long periods. Rather than divert another starship to make a regular rendezvous, the support ship could act as a shuttle service between the cruiser and home, ferrying personnel, resupplying and so forth. This would explain why it's so big. It needs to be a baby starship in it's own right so it can carry sufficient cargo and possess enough endurance to make the journey. It would also need a decent turn of speed to get out and back in reasonable time and catch up with the cruiser again. Based on the screencaps, the support ship must be at least as big as the Warp delta. I conclude this by comparing the size of the delta to Enterprise, then comparing the Enterprise to the D'Kyr in the screencaps.
The support ship would also make an excellent life boat for all the same reasons. A useful and reassuring asset for a deep space capable warship that might find itself damaged and far from home.
And then there's the Nelsonian frigate idea. The support ship could extend the cruisers sensor horizon in search or surveillance missions. A good analogy might be naval helicopters deployed from escorts, although in the Star Trek universe I doubt it would be used as a primary weapon of attack. Against an Andorian cruiser it would surely get creamed.
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I wondered if the smaller ship attached to the docking ring serves as something of a fighter analogue which is more maneuvarable and can aide the larger ship in a fight. We saw something similar in this ship and this ship.
In fact if you check out the whole vulcan page, they have quite a few small vessels which they employ.
Registered: Feb 2005
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I recall watching the season 4 Vulcan arc, in which a Vulcan task force is intercepted by an Andorian fleet. The support vessels didn't disengage, but plenty of the small ships Mars links to accompanied the fleet independently. I wonder if there was a mistake there, because the so-called patrol ships (the small ones with three very Flash Gordon looking rocket shaped pods) were seen in the previous episode flying over the desert, looking for the Syranites. They were refered to as patrol ships and through their absence of a warp ring (which even the Vulcan shuttle craft have) you'd be forgiven for assuming that these are sub-warp local area defence craft only, designed for police work around planets, not deep space combat. When they intercept the Enterprise's shuttle pod, they're shown to be only about twice the size.
Yet there they were in interstellar space. Mixing it up with Kumari cruisers. I wonder who pulled the short straw to pilot those things?
So perhaps the support vessel should have featured in their place?
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posted
You know I hadn't thought of that until you mentioned it. It would have been a perfect chance to use those ships. I wnder if those Flash Gordon ships didn't have an internal warp drive?
Registered: Feb 2005
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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posted
The T'plana-Hath had no warp ring, either, & she was deepspaceworthy.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Or then both that craft and the tiny fighters traveled inside some sort of a shuttlebay, in one of the larger ship types or another.
The Surak class at least features shuttle hangar detail on the lower prong of the hull, and the related design from "Fallen Hero" has twin doors as well (plus we actually get to see one of her shuttles). And roughly similar detail might exist between the impulse engines of the D'Kyr type.
Then again, the survey ship D'Vahl appears capable of independent warp despite looking pretty much like a larger sister of the fighters. Sure, she, too, could have come from a mothership... But where does that leave the original survey ship that crashed in "Carbon Creek", of different design but equally small size and lacking obvious warp rings or other warp-glowy bits?
quote:This is one of the major gripes I've always had with Star Trek hangar arrangements. No pilot worth the name would ever consent to fly between, around or near two great big protruding nacelles on the end of two great long struts! NX-01 has about the best, safest hangar arrangement for a Federation ship I've seen yet. Plenty of unobstructed "airspace" below the vessel (the nacelles are pointing away from you), a nice flat underside, unlike later types in which the saucer bellies downwards, and because you would approach from behind, match course and velocity and creep up on the docking point, you have plenty of room to manoeuvre away if things go wrong.
I used to this the same way, but once you realize that all of the inherent dangers of airflight are removed in space (turbulance. wind shear, friction, etc.) there's no real issue. Also consider the accomplishments in docking shown during the 1960's apollo missions- I'm sure Trek's computer-assisted and tractor-beam guided hangars are perfectly safe in anything short of combat conditions.
The garbage that was STV notwithstanding.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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