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Author Topic: Starship density
Bernd
Guy from Old Europe
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I think we were talking about the volume. The surface area, however, would make sense too for the Federation border patrol.
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Timo
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Shouldn't we always start from the premise that there IS no Federation border patrol? I mean, the borders leak like a sieve. And a good thing, that, since otherwise one wouldn't meet strange new travelers unless one went into deep space a thousand lightyears out or something.

It would make sense for the UFP to concentrate its defences near its clustered homeworlds, since probably none of the outer holdings can be protected directly anyway. Another area of importance would be the part of the border surface that lies directly between your homeworld and that of the enemy - wide-flung "hail Mary" maneuvers probably don't pay off in space warfare. Most of the border could be left unattended, since even message buoys would be in too short a supply to adequately patrol it. Enemy incursions would be met with near-coreworld defences and retaliatory fleets.

It's not as if the British Empire controlled the seas by monitoring, much less occupying every square nautical mile of them. Big ships need harbors, and harbors can be blockaded, or traffic to and fro preyed on. In turn, merchant convoys can be escorted. A credible defence could result from a fleet that could theoretically patrol/occupy just a small fraction of the volume.

Timo Saloniemi


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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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Actually, I conjecture that interstellar warfare in SF is/has to be much more 'direct' - you simply can't hold together a complex body like the Federation by saying "ok, if you cross the border there, we'll retaliate some days later in this and that key sector" (which would be the case if the Federation was indeed 8000 lightyears in diameter, and starships were limited by the 1000 ly/y speedlimit). Claims to territory need to backed up by a (nearby) potent force that can immediately respond to incursions, and, if necessairy, strike back into enemy space at will.

In my other reply I forgot about the warp-corridors which supposedly have a lower "subspace drag coefficient" but these are offset by the warpfactor 5 speedlimit that was imposed on all vessels in "Force of Nature". This makes an 8000 ly wide Federation even more unlikely, IMHO.

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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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The whole of Bernd's complaint seems to be from this idea that the physical existence of the Federation is maintained by physical force. That the space cannot be said to be Federation territory unless it has a placeholder in the form of a starship there.

But it's not an Empire. Starfleet's main duties within the borders largely consists of trasnportation, and research (say, in the gaps between member systems - there's a lot there they don't know about). And, of course, public relations. This, by the way, is distinct from their duties ON the borders, which consist of guarding and expanding said borders (in a non-belligerent way).

Starfleet's punch comes in the suggestion of physical force - walking softly with said big stick. You may invade this sector which is free of any of our ships, they say, but bear witness that we WILL retaliate, bringing in ships from all around, so that the border almost seems to recoil against the intrusion.

Unfortunately this isn't perfect. Time and again it's been shown that there are hardly ever any ships available to retaliate. Plus the recoil is usually less than spectacular - throughout TNG and DS9 there were always references to three or six or nine ships on their way, hardly a massive fleet. . .


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Timo
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But even six ships are a frightening retaliation in that they can level a world without breaking a sweat (provided there aren't extensive defences). The enemy can only strike with impunity if it in turn has starships guarding all its holdings against these "small-scale" strikes.

Another factor: if the area you cannot defend is 2,341 ly from you garrison, and all the major players' homeworlds are clustered near Earth, then the undefended area is impractically far away from the *enemy* as well. The foe can only take it, not keep it. And single planets are not of much strategic value if they lie in deep space - the planets themselves can be blockaded, but they cannot be used to blockade trade routes or anything.

A Trek empire potentially *could* fight by picking enemy planets one by one with those small six-ship fleets, trying to get them faster than the enemy gets his. But spreading the fleet out to do this privateering would weaken homeworld defences and allow the enemy to perform a strike that REALLY mattered. Starship fleets could be used like MAD-style deterrents to prevent hostile takeover of far-flung holdings. And the better deterrent would probably be the big strike against the homeworld, not the numerous small strikes with six-packs of ships.

Timo Saloniemi


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Bernd
Guy from Old Europe
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Lee: There has to be some kind of border patrol at least along the Fed/Romulan NZ and the Fed/Cardy DMZ. Remember that almost always when the border was crossed there was an enemy ship already waiting. The only option that ever existed to cross such a border undetected was using a cloaking device.

First of all this concept wouldn't work at all if these border areas were millions of square light years in the case the Federation were thousands of ly across. This would require tens of thousands of ships and outposts on either side in this border region alone. One might object that the two territories touch only in a small area, but then the question is why there is a border conflict at all. The Romulans would have had a century to conquer all the remaining space in between, as would have the Federation, not to conquer, of course, but to find new members and found new outposts. Therefore the border areas as well as the territories need to be several orders of magnitude smaller.

Timo: It is obvious that this vicinity has been created for dramaturgic reasons, and if the overall territories were actually that large it would be an incredible coincidence that the homeworlds are all so close to each other. One suggestion was that the Federation, Romulans, Klingons are something like European countries founding colonies in Africa. This would imply the borders of the motherland/fatherland (which do you prefer?) would be well-defined, whereas the colonies are spread throughout a larger region. The Federation, Klingon, Cardassian and other colonies wouldn't probably form a uniform three-dimensional territory, but it doesn't matter that much because neither side is going to risk a war about it. Only the Romulans are most probably isolationists and hide beyond their Neutral Zone. Actually, this would be one more reason to move the Klingons and Cardassians closer together that Bajor is actually located "above" the Federation.

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"Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress")
Ex Astris Scientia


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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Oh, I agree there's a border patrol. That was why I made a distinction, in the second paragraph of my last post, between the role Starfleet performs within it's borders and ON it's borders.

And really that border patrol is the perfect example of how I see Starfleet policing the Federation. There are going to be certain points which make obvious places for border posts. Here you find the Deep Space stations, monitoring posts, and so forth that we've seen. The mobile element of the border guards, the starships, arrange their patrol routes around these anchoring points, varying the routine for security, and according to intelligence reports.

And so it is in the rest of the Federation. Starbases are placed at strategic points, ships fill in the gaps according to whatever duties they're assigned at the time.

So, I reckon the 'fleets' we've seen in Deep Space Nine are probably very arbitrary groupings, gathhered together in a way so as not to neglect their regular duties. In order to maintain the organisation of the fleet, ships are assigned by class and 'type' - but which ships of that class/'type' are called to fleet duties depends on the priority of what they're doing at the time.


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Austin Powers
Slightly warped
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However complex this whole discussion seems to be, one fact remains. During TOS and TNG ships were a rarity. ("Now where did we hide that special effects budget again?") I can recall lines like "we're the only ship in the quadrant(!). Obviously a mistake, but even assuming the size of the fleet during TNG is correct, why are there suddenly several fleets of 400+ ships?

True, the Federation is at war, but come on, one fleet at DS9, some at Earth and several more at other key systems. Either they are really replicating entire ships, which no one believes than can, or the less important systems and areas of Federation space are left virtually defenseless.

Think of "Best of both worlds". In the German version of the episode Shelby says that they will have rebuilt "the fleet" in one year. What exactly does she mean by this? Is she talking about the entire Starfleet or just these 39 ships lost at Wolf359?

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oh behave!!


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Striker
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It's got to just be the 39 ships. There is absolutely no way that the entire Starfleet is 39 ships. Just call me Captain Striker, commander of the USS Obvious.

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-Striker
kob.diabloii.net


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Dax
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One thing to take into account is the starship registries. Could there really have been > 75000 Starfleet starships built so far? And about 97% of those ships would have to have been built since the start of the 24th Century.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK


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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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Not all vessels are Starfleet ones, but even despite this I think 75.000 vessels simply can't have been constructed. It is more likely that the show's supervisors have messed around with the registration numbers so much (without really knowing what they were doing) that they can't provide us with a reasonable estimate of how many ships there are, how many have been scrapped, etc. Just think of the amount of resources you would need to construct all those ships!

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"Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"


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Dax
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It does sound like alot of ships (and resources), but not if you take into account that Starfleet is supported by and defends 150 different races.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK


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Bernd
Guy from Old Europe
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Generally, if there can be 10,000 ships, 30,000 would be possible as well (the remaining ships 45,000 being decommissioned). The only problem is that their number is exponentially rising, but the Federation territory or number of member planets not.

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"Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress")
Ex Astris Scientia


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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Federation members don't appear to be expanding at that rate, no. But assuming that the Federation is exploring out in a roughly circular fashion, the numbers of ships required is going to increase at a pretty fair clip.

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"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."
--
John Linnell


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Harry
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Yesterday I saw a TNG episode (on BCC2) where Riker said that if the Kes -or the Prytt, don't remember- killed Picard, Starfleet would send ten ships to find out what happened and question the people involved.
Isn't that a bit ridiculous, to send ten ships just to find 1 Starfleet officer?

(Of course, it could be that Riker was just bluffing to scare the Kes/Prytt.

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"There will be an answer, let it be..."
Motto of the USS Sutherland


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