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Member # 256
posted
Whichever theory you think is most likely, I do not believe that either is entirely correct. The Federation and virtually every other "major" galactic power would not be able to hold together such enormous volumes of space (LFT) or be able to construct so many (10000+) ships (SFT). And given that neither theory is more likely then the other it is not really possible to speculate just how the Federation's defense / exploration - forces / missions - operates. To me, the LFT seems most similar to how WWII naval battles were fought, with every friendly and enemy move calculated in advance and even small losses having dramatic consequences for future engagements and tactics. But since these battles were only two-dimensional, with the Pacific ocean being the "playing grid", they cannot be likened to the three-dimensional combat strategies needed in space (which is a few thousend lightyears "thick") - thus making the LFT unlikely. Space encounters occur in real-time, and therefore it does not make sense to have a few hundred ships here, a few hundred there, and a bunch in between, and then hope that in the event of an invasion (which COULD, of course, involve hundreds of vessels but would only come from ONE direction, since the taskforce would otherwise be too much spread out) the "first layer" can slow them down, and the second layer, should the first fail, completely stop the enemy advancement. If a few hundred Russian (excuse the stereotyping) nucleair submarines would, for instance, depart from their base in Murmansk now, they would have to be intercepted and disabled / destroyed BEFORE they could pose a threat to American cities. A "shell" consisting of multiple patrolling carrier groups would have to be pretty much focussed on a single location, because that would be the only way to stop the intrusion into Allied waters. Remember that, even if those submarines were completely surrounded after they entered striking distance (when the supposed "shell" had contracted around them) they could still launch their missiles and accomplish their objectives. So, territorial defense would have to be far less "passive" and much more "active & responsive", even if the SFT doesn't fit with the number of ships in the Starfleet (it would make sense during Wolf 359, though)
------------------ "Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"
posted
Y'know, the differnet classifications of "outermost" aren't really necessary. Deneb may simply have been the farthest outpost in that particular direction, while the Federation expands for over 6000ly in the opposite direction.
------------------ "Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!" -Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
posted
Having the Federation extend 6000 ly in the direction opposite from Deneb is not good, because then the UFP would lie mostly in the Beta quadrant (the parts in Alpha would be quite small compared to those in Beta). Dialogue calls the UFP an Alpha quadrant political entity, suggesting the parts in Beta are those that are insignificantly small.
I'm not convinced that the "small Federation +outliers" theory couldn't work. There's nothing to say a SFT empire couldn't build tens of thousands or even millions of starships. A single star system might build that many for all we know (and for example the Romulan Star Empire might be such a single-system wonder, constrained as it is by the Neutral Zone).
And a SF+OT might assume that the outliers are only locally defended and not at all defended by the main body of Starfleet. After all, if the outliers are distant from the core worlds, they are also distant from the core enemies - Klingon or Romulan or Cardassian ships would have just as much trouble reaching them as Starfleet defence forces would. If the outliers attract foreign interest, then they will fall. But probably they aren't interesting enough, their main importance lying in the fact that their location allows the UFP propaganda machine to claim the Federation is "8,000 ly across". Only the UFP is interested in having member systems it cannot defend due to the distances involved - the Klingons would never even try to acquire such systems.
As for the layered defence, I'm thinking the outer layer would only serve as an early warning system - it would be impossible for it to efficiently patrol the whole surface area of the UFP, let alone intercept the intruders. True defences would consist of fortified systems, plus a mobile force of starships that would move to defend the system where the enemy was heading. That would require less ships than the assigning of entire defence-capable fleets to each system permanently. Against the fast-moving Borg, the system would be powerless, but against conventional enemies it would be the only one to make economical sense.
And the distance at which invading fleets can truly threaten a planet seems to be mere thousands or at most millions of kilometers. This is quite different from defending a city against SLBMs - the better analogy would be a nation built on an archipelago defending against late 19th or early 20th century gun-toting, aircraft-less naval forces from another archipelago nation, in a war theater as big as the Pacific.
According to reg's, there were ~80000 ships built. highest reg = 79650 (Prometheus plaque-version) lowest reg = 1701 (not *the* lowest, but low enough) so, that makes 79650-1701=77859 ships built in 2370-2240=130 years
77859/130= around 600 ships per year
Let's say there 150 shipyards, that makes an average of 4 ships per shipyard per year. So, it should take about 3 months to build a ship!
Formula: ((A-B)/(C-D))/S A=Highest registry B=Lowest registry C=Year when lowest registry was introduced D=Year when highest registry was introduced S=Amount of shipyards in the Federation
This formula is based on the assumption that the registries are at least partially chronological and it doesn't take into account the growth of the Federation.
------------------ "When You're Up to Your Ass in Alligators, Today Is the First Day of the Rest of Your Life." -- Management slogan, Ridcully-style (Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent, Discworld) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prakesh's Star Trek Site
posted
What about non-combat and utility craft. I don't think they would use a science ship to fight the borg unless they wanted to use it as a decoy. But then the crew would be put in serious risk. Also, all the runabouts had individual registry numbers. If they had more than one class of those then they could easily drop the number of 'real' ships down to a much lower number. (And besides, they would take a lot less time to build than a larger ship.) If you want to get down to it, there would probably be just as many non-combat ships as there are combat ships at any one given time. Just consider the logistical requirements of running the whole fleet. You'd have cargo, survey, curiour, science, medivac, and a whole slew of other minor types. It is possible that SF was concentrating on a more peaceful doctrine before the Borg and then decided to refit a bunch of ships to a combat roll.
Another possibility is that they had a reserve fleet, like the Army Reserve and Army National Guard. They would be there, but only activated in a time of war to really suppliment the active fighting forces. That's what the US did in the Gulf War. Trained forces ready to go at a moments notice, but not considered a part of the 'real' fleet.
------------------ It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.
posted
Uh, Prakesh, the highest known registry is NCC-75633 for the USS Sao Paulo. USS Prometheus is NX-74913.
------------------ "The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey
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