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Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds:

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Originally posted by coatlantis1745:
to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning)

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P.S. That wasn't an actual design on an actual Okudagram, that was drawn by one of your fellow posters...

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Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds:
So do you propose that there was no global nuclear conflict in the 2050s?

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Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds:
In any case, it wasn't Berman and Braga (those evil, evil men that everyone trots out when they want to whine about modern Trek) who came up with a global conflict after the 1990s. "A Matter of Time" (TNG) established a nuclear holocaust in the mid-21st century. "Encounter at Farpoint" (TNG) established 2079 as being in the post-atomic horror. "The Savage Curtain" (TOS) referred to a genocidal war in the 21st century.

No, there was clearly a large-scale war in the mid-21st century, and there was nothing wrong with Dark Lord Berman and his Imperial Viceroy Braga running with that in First Contact. There are three ways to go with it. Either:

1.) The Eugenics Wars were just a regional conflict... that involved tyranny over a quarter of the planet, entire populations bombed out of existence, and the brink of a new dark ages for humanity.

2.) The nuclear holocaust was just a regional conflict... that created a planet-wide nuclear winter, threw nations into anarchy, and led humanity to the brink of a new dark ages just a few decades after recovering from the last brink.

3.) They were the same war.

I'm not sure which you support. Obviously, I support number 3. That just leaves the question of dates. The fact that TOS came first doesn't mean that it can't be superceded than anything later. In fact, Roddenberry routinely changed his premises, retconning older ideas throughout the original series. From lasers-phasers to UESPA-Starfleet to Earth-Federation, the man and his staff were never loathe to change their minds. And as we saw above, they had no problem adding a new global war after their previously established "last world war."

That said, there is far more support for a later date for the global conflcit than the earlier. Aside from the Roddenberry-approved references in my first paragraph, there was First Contact, in which it was said directly that the war was a decade before 2063. If the nuclear war was seventy years before the film, it makes Cochrane's situation a little less credible. There is the fact that every time we've seen contemporary Earth, from the 1960s to the 1990s, it has appeared virtually identical to the real world. Khan was genetically engineered by people with no obvious technological advantage over us in the 1950s or 60s... or he was engineered by people with a technological advantage over us in the 2000s or 10s. There is the DY-100 nuclear-powered cryogenic interplanetary vessel, first in a entire family of DY-ships, being more advanced than the Ares of 2032 in "One Small Step" (VGR). There was the space shuttle on many an Enterprise display, demonstating again the technological parity between the universes. Finally, there is all of Enterprise's references to the war, for whatever they're worth.

Or, we can go with Spock's uncertain reference from fragmentary records.

Tough one.

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Originally posted by coatlantis1745:
to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning)

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P.S. That wasn't an actual design on an actual Okudagram, that was drawn by one of your fellow posters...

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Originally posted by PsyLiam:
There's also the fact that, realistically, any reference to a big scary world wide war in the 90s that wiped out a whole lot of people is just going to confuse the casual viewer (for which read at least 80% of everyone watching).

So apart from oh-so-cute DS9 references (which placed them in the 2200s anyway, thanks to Mr Ronald "oh, he's soooo much better than Braga because he likes canon stuff" Moore fucking up), I doubt we're ever going to get any out and out comments along the lines of "there was a war in 1996 that was big and scary".

In fact, I would have personally removed the "1996" line from TWOK if I were in charge of the special edition, but I am evil like that.

Anyway, that doesn't stop people from having interesting and thoughtful opinions on the subject. I think they are ultimatly pointless, but I think the same thing about shiplists, so go ahead.

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Alright, welcome to the discussion. That "big, scary war" as you put it DID HAPPEN as stated in the episode "Space Seed". It is in fact 1 of 78 episodes that established a framework of continuity for a television series. Now, if succeeding series claim to be a continuation of that story, then wouldn't it be in the best interests of intelligent and loyal viewers like ourselves to watch the show build upon the foundation of its founders??

I am clearly prepared to watch Enterprise come and go and never make any references to that "big, scary war". Again, what Enterprise chooses to do with the continuity is immaterial to this timeline challenge.

Fortunately for the rest of us concerned with continuity, you were NOT in charge of the audio editing process. The line is established continuity so your stuck with it (Thats is assuming you give a rat's tush about the foundation that TOS has provided)

Now, if our opinions are all indeed pointless on this matter then. . . why have you responded to this at all to this challenge?

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All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by. . .

-John Masefield

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Originally posted by Aban Rune:
1. Let's not forget the line in the DS9 episode with Bashir's parents where the Admiral states the Eugenics wars took place "200 years ago". That would place them a good century later than was originally established, yes?

2. I guess the easiest explanation, if not the most satisfying one, is that sometime between the TOS era and the DS9 era, there was a change in the timeline which pushed the Eugenics Wars back a little bit. This would explain why there is no evidence of them in "Past Tense" or "Future's End"

Maybe Starling or Braxton messed the timeline up.

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1). Pass this throwaway line over to the realm of not bothering to calculate the amount of time passage between 1996 and the 2370s.

2). That is indeed an understatement

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All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by. . .

-John Masefield

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Originally posted by Reverend:

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Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds:

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Originally posted by coatlantis1745:
to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning)

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P.S. That wasn't an actual design on an actual Okudagram, that was drawn by one of your fellow posters...

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Shhhh! Don't tell him which one. Or else I'll set the Kung Fu Armadillos on you!

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I confess I am not sure exactly who the author of that fine illustration was, but do tell him it was an impressive drawing anyway.

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All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by. . .

-John Masefield

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Originally posted by CaptainMike:
the books were ok, if not for drama then for their well researched continuity stitching. Greg Cox really does make it all work out, you know..

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Originally posted by coatlantis1745:
In summary, given a choice, I will go with Spock's data on this subject as it is entirely relevant to my timeline challenge.

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