OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
Member # 621
posted
This is the question that's been in my head for a long, long time. I've always toyed with the idea of trying to make an estimate of it, though it'd be quite the undertaking, delving through ten years and over 200 episodes, something I don't really have the time to sink on.
Has anybody given this any thought? Or know of conjecture already undertaken somewhere?
Here's my half-cocked, numbers from my ass, attempting to be overly conservative estimate.
The major groups of people and organizations that would have knowledge of the Stargate and all the myriad technologies, near catastrophes, and massive implications for the nature of our existence within the universe, off the top of my head:
Air Force
Stargate Command -A facility run by at least several hundred people, perhaps upwards of several thousand, with approximately twenty SG teams (probably an average of four people per team), scientists, technicians, guards, and support staff). Over ten years of operation comes with it plenty of personnel transfer (read: many, many nameless extras) that probably puts the numbers for SGC staffing alone in the tens of thousands. Total: 10,000-50,000
Area 51 -Another facility that has to be at least comparable in size to SGC itself. Area 51 isn't the front line base that SGC is, but does expand upon the tip-of-the-iceberg nature of the research and discoveries done at SGC. Whether this means a smaller number of personnel or greater, an argument could probably be made for either. Personally, I would tend towards the latter, imagining Area 51 as the more comprehensive facility, with the manpower to match (and I want to say there are references in episodes that would back this up). Several thousand strong, at least, also with at least ten years of manpower rotations. Total: 2,000-10,000
Alpha Site -The requisite number of personnel required to plan, build, equip, outfit, and man four different Alpha Sites. At least 77 humans are missing from the evacuation of the Alpha Site in "Homecoming," putting the total number of Earth personnel at an absolute minimum of a hundred and a safer minimum of double that. Factor in rotation and attrition and by some coefficient to account for three sites, though less than three as one imagines there would be significant overlap since each base was built and staffed consecutively. Total: 300
Beta Site -Similar to the Alpha Site, though one imagines even smaller. Say between a hundred and a hundred and fifty, plus attrition and rotation. Total: 250
X-301 -Two of the significant projects to come out of Area 51, but for the purposes of this excercise, included because of the personnel intensive nature of them. It takes thousands of people to design an aircraft, particularly an advanced combat aircraft, with skill sets ranging from avionics and electronics to propulsion to systems, structures, and aerodynamics. Since we've already accounted for Area 51 personnel and the nature of the X-301 development (i.e. taking a Death Glider, swapping a few components, and slapping a USAF sticker on it) means that it wasn't an overly intensive development, we won't assume any additional personnel were involved for the 301, above and beyond the already accounted for Area 51 staff. We do need to account for at least a few additional personnel involved in the test: air traffic controllers and the like. Say, 50. This is also, I think one of the first instances where general staff outside the SGC are shown as having knowledge of the Stargate, which we'll account for later. Total: 0
X/F-302 -All those thousands involved in designing state of the art combat aircraft? The 302 was designed from the ground up and by necessity would require those thousands, even above and beyond Area 51. In the real world, this work is done by private companies awarded contracts by the government. It's been explicitly said to be the way (at least to an extent) for Stargate's various projects, with billionaire Alec Colson's company doing at least some of the work involved (and Colson himself having full knowledge, covered later). In addition, the 302 has been in production for several years. I don't think we've ever been told how many squadrons there are, but with at least a few on Earth, one on the Alpha Site, and two per capital ship. We'll ignore the Alpha Site and ship based squadrons (having already accounted for one and leaving the others for later). But let's say that there are five squadrons based on Earth by SG-1's tenth season. 60 pilots, plus all the mechanics and support staff needed to support a squadron, say 250 per squadron, multiplied by five. All told, the 302 probably entails 10,000 people involved in the design and construction, with an additional 1,250 involved in direct squadron support, plus even more air traffic controllers and other assorted squadron support. Let's round up 1,250 to an even 2,000. Total: 2,000
X-303, et al -In my opinion, this is where the continued secrecy of the Stargate program really strains credibility. We're talking about the construction of four sizable capital ships. The development of which had to include thousands of the nation's/world's top minds to create a spacecraft dozens of times larger and more complex than the most complex spacecraft created up to that point. Factor in the labor needed to construct it and its support facilities (remember that big hanger in the middle of nowhere) in adddition to operating crews and support staff. Prometheus takes 115 (c.f. Stargate wiki), but Daedalus and sisters take "about 200." Say 5,000 all told for designing and building, plus 715 for crews. Round up to 800 with standard attrition and turnover for a total of 5,800. Total: 5,800
Atlantis -A substantial base requiring substantial support, and international support at that. I'm sure the Atlantis pilot or something else has given us an approximate numbers for Atlantis' staff, though a number eludes me at the moment. Let's say actual Atlantis staff is 500. For support on the American side, we won't add anything beyond what's already included for the SGC and Area 51. However, each international partner would have to have some sort of structure in place for selecting and informing (and covering up) the participation of McKay, Zelinka, et. al, above and beyond the upper echelons of the governments that were briefed about the program in that one clip show. Also,you would assume that some countries have a larger presence than others and would have a correspondingly larger amount of people briefed. It seems logical that France, a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council, would have a larger presence than Czechslovakia, Zelinka or no. Say, on average 30 for each country involved in Atlantis. Total number of countries involved in Atlantis is unknown, but let's assume the Security Council, plus a majority of the major industrial powers of the world, including United Kingdom, Germany, France, Spain, China, Italy, Australia, Russia, Canada, and a few others. Let's say between 15-20 countries all told, again with an average of 30 per country. Total: 545-560
Pentagon/Other Command Staff -We've seen a number of various Air Force generals and officers, often detached from the Pentagon but not exclusively. It'd be nice to have a specific count of non-SGC Air Force personnel to have direct knowledge of the Stargate that have guest starred through the halls of the SGC, but that's the kind of nitpick combing work I don't have the time to indulge in. With almost nothing to base it on, I'll go out on a limb and say there are 500 Air Force officers not directly assigned to the SGC or one of its spin offs that have knowledge of the Stargate.
U.S. Government Officials Anybody have a list of officials confirmed as having knowledge of the Stargate? Again, off the top of my head:
President -How many have we had over the course of the show? It spans ten years, so at least two, probably more like three. Total: 2-3
-Presumably his Chief of Staff (has this been confirmed in an episode?) and I would imagine at least a couple members of the president's immediate staff, including the National Security Advisor, Secretary of State, and (now) Director of Homeland Security. Multiply by the number of Presidents, factor in typical rotation but also factor in political nepotism, something that knowledge of the Stargate almost certainly reinforces. Total: 15-30
Vice President -A similar number to the President, at least two to three. Though it's worth noting that historically, it isn't that uncommon for a President to have more than one Vice President over the course of their term. However, it's also not a given that the Vice President would be fully debriefed unless circumstances dictated, similar to Truman's learning of the atomic bomb. And at least one Vice President attained the post already knowing about the Stargate and (IIRC) attained the post because of that knowledge. Total: 2
-If the Vice President knows, and at least one of them does, then as with the President, at least some small number of his staff must also know. But since it's the Vice President, we'll count an even smaller number. Say 5 for the whole course of ten years. Total: 5
Joint Chiefs of Staff -The whole of the Joint Chiefs of Staff were shown participating in Anubis' attack on Earth. That's six people plus their own personal staffs, say three each, gives us eighteen. Attrition and rotation rounds us up to 25. Total: 25
Senate Appropriations Committee -Where the Stargate gets all of its money. And as such, you better believe that they know the full details of all that goes on with the Stargate, as has been, directly or indirectly, the impetus behind various episodes. In real life the Senate Appropriations Committee consists of 28 members, each with their own staff (let's be conservative and say two per senator). Also let's not forget the ever present attrition and turnover, present here in natural elections. Senators serve six year terms and you can count on about half to be up for reelection in any given cycle (every two years), giving us a theoretical full turnover a total of five times over ten years. Of course, we all know that there's anything but total turnover in any given election and that repeatedly elected politicians are the rule rather than the exception. Don't ask me for percentages for the legislative bodies as a whole or the committees specifically, so we'll just add 10% to the otherwise total. 28 Senators multiplied by 2 to give us 56, and adding 10% gives us 61.6, or 62. Feels low, but we're being conservative. Total: 62
House Appropriations Committee -Since House and Senate budgets have to be reconciled before becoming law, it's logical to assume the House equivalent of the Senate Appropriations Committee also has some say over Stargate funding, even though it I don't think it's been referenced in the same way the Senate Appropriations Committee has been. There are presently 66 members of the House Appropriations Committee, again each with their own staff and attrition and turnover. Given the substantially larger body, it's not necessarily automatic that each and every one has received the full debrief, but given the natures of political posturing and information trading, I severely doubt some members get the scoop and others don't. 66 doubled gives us 132 + 10% = 145. Total = 145
Other Government Agencies
NID -A civilian agency charged with exploiting Stargate technology. A shadowy government organization, the very nature of which makes it terribly difficult to estimate numbers. But it's had a sizable presence over the years, with its own compliment of nameless extras. Let's peg it at 500. Total: 500
Syndicate -This one I even forget the name of. It's not the Syndicate I think, but some name similar S-name. In any event, I mean that rogue group (not NID, the OTHER rogue group) that was stealing technology from alien worlds and bringing it to some off world site until they got shut down by O'Neil. Obviously remembering so little makes guessing numbers difficult, but we'll take a wild stab at 25 needed to create, support, and operate a super secret covert group. Total: 25
International Partners
Russia -Enough members of the Russian government, military brass, and all around politburo know about the Stargate to run their own program, at least for a time. The Russian Stargate base is staffed by 47 (why does that number stick out in my head?) plus Counsellor Troi herself. Add to all this that anything the Russian government knows, the Russian mafia also probably knows, that's a pretty substantial number of people. I'd say 2,000, still in my view, being quite conservative. Total: 2,000
International Partners -At least four governments are briefed on the Stargate program in "Disclosure," which if I'm not mistaken, are the other four permanent members of the U.N. Security Council. The number of international personnel included in the Atlantis count isn't meant to include the governments themselves, saved intentionally for this section. However, we have already covered Russia and it's easy to imagine the other included governments having a considerably tighter need-to-know net than Russia. Still, we're talking about Ambassadors, ambassadorial staff, heads of state and accompanying staff, and equivelant legistlators and accompanying staff. Factor in attrition and turnover...500 sound good? Does for me. Total: 500
IOA -The international oversight organization created by the various countries after being told about the Stargate. An international organization charged with government oversight? None of those words exactly screamed small, streamlined organization. I'm gonna say a low ball of a hundred, but again, have very little to back that up with. Total: 100
Civilians and Assorted
Alec Colson and Defense Contractors -One of the few civilians we know that's been explicitly told about the Stargate program. There are, what, two or three people part of Colson's inner circle that know? Let's assume there's one or two more off screen and over the years and let's remember that we're not talking about people directly involved in design and construction (already accounted for) but rather executive management, Boards of Directors, and the like. The development has to be spread across multiple contractors, potentially up to a dozen, each with their CEOs and inner circles. More accurate speculation could certainly be gleaned from a review of the Alec Colson episode, but such is not the aim of this excercise. 1 plus 3 multiplied by 12. Total: 18-48
Assorted Loved Ones -Now this one would take a good deal of combing, but there are at least a couple of old flames and various spawns running around out there. Carter's cop boyfriend, Young Jack O'Neil, and whatever happened to Cassandra after Frasier died. I'm sure there must be more that escape me at the moment. And if we extrapolate from what we've seen assuming that the adventures of SG-1 are typical for all SG teams, we can safely assume there are thousands of old flames and family members wandering around with knowledge of the Stargate... Total: 10-50
Assorted Civilians -Confirmed cases include Kivas Fajo, the reporter chick and team that toured Prometheus. That's...four? Kivas' crew was Air Force and presumably already had clearance but reporter chick had a one or two person crew. Did they end up telling Dan Castellaneta's character the whole story? There must be at least a few more, shown or not. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there have been at least a few people who saw an entire building dissappear or experienced transdimensional bug crawlies and were persistant enough to put enough pieces together to force an Air Force payoff. Total: 4-10
And of course, above and beyond the numbers here, there must be thousands upon thousands that know something is up but don't know what. Like an entire carrier battle group that saw their carrier get blown up by a beam from space, the thousands of city denizens that woke up to find a mysterious hole in their skyline, and the thousands that have had brushes with weirdness and then been visited by the Men In Black.
Grand Total Minimum: 24,308 Grand Total Not Quite Minimum: 72,415
I'm sure there are plenty of blank spots beyond what I've jotted down here and the speculation is wild and unresearched, but even this has been enough to demonstrate that a more indepth look is beyond me at the moment, considering this was supposed to be the quick and dirty and it still took me two days to write out.
Ultimately it all goes towards the fact that I've always assumed a natural conclusion to the show was making the program and all the accumulated occurances public. As time has gone on, it's become more and more apparent that's not at all a consideration. But really, after all that's happened over a decade, how much does that strain credibility? I mean, how can you start building an honest to god starfleet and still not face the prospect of telling the general populace about Our-Place-In-The-Universe type knowledge? Also bear in mind we're less than three years out from hitting 2010, where SG-1 once speculated a fully public and integrated into society Stargate. Granted, it was predicated on the idea that we'd get enough help from what's-their-names that we wouldn't be teetering on the edge of total oblivion. But the Gu'oald were defeated and though the Ori quickly replaced them, nary the mention of what to do in a post-brink-of-annihilation world. And here comes the Ori defeat in t-minus ten episodes and what do you want to bet there won't be any mention of revealing this fundamental altering of the nature of our existence? And really, of all the thousands of people that have to have knowledge, not one of them has blown the biggest secret of all time? Unlikely, I think.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
I'm a big proponent of the notion that the number would be trending small. Sure, in the later years of SG-1 it seemed like EVERYONE knew about the Stargate, but I'm sure that misinformation and assorted conspiracies could keep that number low. How many government contractors could have worked on alien subsystems without knowing where their stuff was coming from? Would the NORAD tour guide REALLY need to know what's going on thirty seven floors down from the gift shop?
posted
I agree- the number of people in the mountain complex that actually know is peobably a quarter of your projected estimate. All those upper level troops need know nothing- same with most of the senate approriations guys: there's a TON of stuff developed that these appointed, civillian and easily comprimised people would never kow about- consider that the entire committe changes at minimum ever eight years- probably every four.
As an example, lets look at SDI- it was a mostly bullshit program to make to Soviets waste tens of billions matching our imaginary orbital weapons (which they did- recall their knock-off shuttle design?) and several known soviet spys were fed disinformation to keep the gag moving untill the USSR's collapse. A whole shitload of people must have know about the program, but it never got out while it ran.
Same thing goes for experimental aircraft- decades go by before they're made public, but thousands have had a part in their development.
The stuff with Stagrate I dont get is where Egypt stands with all this- yesterday, they showed the episode where Osiris gets into her buried spaceship and slowly flys away- leaving her temple full of high-tech alien stuff behind. So...they egyptians are dumb- or paid off- or doing something shady with alien stuff they've uncovered and keeping low profile while the US military conducts operations within their borders...
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
Member # 621
posted
I probably should have been clearer, but the SGC numbers I consider literally for the SGC itself, not NORAD or Cheyenne Mountain Complex as a whole. The number above was strictly for the SG teams, technicians, guards, medical personnel, attached scientists, mechanics, programmers, and yes, paper pushers for just the SGC itself. Beyond the actual interface with NORAD, I wouldn't imagine many people within the "real world" installation would know, though given that we've seen them go so far as hand out clearance to civilians and the all around heavily classified nature of the complex in general, I wouldn't be surprised if anybody cleared for Cheyenne in general was also cleared for the Stargate specifically.
Something else to take into account, we've had plenty of action going on in orbit, including an orbital bombardment, space/air battle of Antarctica, and (at this point) regular traffic of space capital ships, it's probably a fair bet that quite of a few of the guys on console at NORAD and Space Command know quite a bit.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
Hmm...from thta perspective, I can see your numbers pertaining to that many prople knowing something, but the number of people poised to blow the whistle on the program in general must be extremely smaller (and, of course, most SGC applicants would not pass muster due to possible security breaches or friends/relatives with security risks, nosy reporter girlfriends, etc.).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
Member # 621
posted
Whoops, also forgot about the Gamma Site, both the original and its successor.
Regarding Egypt, you're right, there has to be an even greater number of people within the Egyptian government that have some part to play, what with the occasional flying pyramids that tend to crop up across their country.
You're also right about not everyone having full knowledge. But I think these numbers cover those who know enough to understand that the secret involves aliens, supremely advanced technology, space travel, and/or repeated iminent destruction.
As much as I love both the 100 and 200 episodes (100 is one of my favorite hours of television ever), it's tough to consider those "canon" in the same way. Given the metatheatrical nature of each show, you just can't apply the same suspension of disbelief. Especially when the end of one episode has total civilians witnessing an alien ship up and being impressed with the special effects awards they're going to win rather the sight itself. Simply put, "Wormhole X-Treme" and "200" play by different rules, and while I love them for that, you can't exactly include them when applying the rules to their brethren.
Of course, if you want to include an entire film crew on location, none of which have any compunction to keep quiet, then I don't have a problem with it.
Also, watching the episode on now, the one with the alien bear attack thing and Mitchell and Landry at the cabin, Carter mentions SG-25, adding a bare minimum of another 20 people to the count.
EDIT: Oh, and it occurs to me that maybe just maybe the producers still have some intention of revealing the program. Watching the promos for the remainder of the season, they keep talking about how the SG-1 is going to become "legends forever" or something to that effect. Of course, that could mean a million different things, but one of those things would definitely be revealing the program and SG-1's exploits. It's a long shot, especially with the prospect of DVD movies and other series, but a guy can hope.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
I know about the Stargate and I called everyone in the phonebook about it (everyone from chimpan-A to chimpanzee) ....I even made a lame Stargate magazine for a while, not to mention all those expose' websites I made.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
