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Omega: Dune Messiah, yeah. Also, how about the whole Kwizatz Haderach project?
About the whole "Kung-Fu in the matrix but not outside", the software is probably installed into latent, subconscious memory. Would work inside the matrix. Real world martial arts can only be learned through muscle/nerve memory, though. Big dif.
Another question, (less relevant but more fun), is how would they actually �grow� humans? They can�t just take a random sperm from a guy and insert it in a random egg of a woman, without the natural selection of a good sperm-race any number of birth defects would appear in this fashion of growing humans.
And going from chance to deliberation, trying to calculate the possible number of variations in an offspring feels hard to me. Take the DNA setup of a single sperm (10 billion entries?), multiply it with the number of sperms available in one beanbag every day, then multiply that with the number of mature beanbags in the pods (18-50 years), then multiply that figure with the number of eggs available each day. How many zeros have we reached now?
Or let�s say a person falls in love with another in the matrix. They make love and the woman gets pregnant. Has some sentinel now flown between the lovers, separated in the real world by possibly ridiculous distances, and inseminated pod-ma�am with pod-sir�s semen?
Secondly, how can they make billions of pod-people believe the year is 1999, for hundreds of years? Not just 1999�s status of the world but the actual figure?? I mean, for crying out loud, they aren�t stupid. The thesis that matrix-people believe the year is 1999 must be supported by some sort of miracle-delusion project done at the very least every 31st December since The Great Podding for the thesis to hold.
Thirdly, returning to advanced metaphysics, doesn�t the waves of sentinels in the Zion hanger look like sperm floods? The architect is jizzing all over Zion, both metaphorically and increasingly. If that isn�t proof that old manjuice still cuts it, I obviously don�t know what is.
Registered: Aug 1999
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About the whole "Kung-Fu in the matrix but not outside", the software is probably installed into latent, subconscious memory. Would work inside the matrix. Real world martial arts can only be learned through muscle/nerve memory, though. Big dif.
Muscle/nerve memory? If I believed in such a thing, it would make sense, but he should still KNOW how to move. It might not be as effective, but he should still have tried it.
Also, did they actually say that everyone in the Matrix always thinks it's 1999? That just happened to be the year that Neo thought it was in the first movie. But then, I havent' seen the third one.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Omega's right here about Neo still knowing how to move. If a martial artist was in the hospital for a stretch and his muscles atrophied a bit, he's still at least attempt to block a punch or try to fight back with his skills. While "reflex memory" is a very real thing as part of your kinesthetic sense,(definitely spelled wrong) but in Neo's case, he's be attempting Kung Fu moves but his reaction time would be waaay off.
ON the plus side, I'm glad they didint cop out and make Smith unable to take a punch in the real world because of the pain/tolerance diffrences betwen reality and the Martix.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Omega's right here about Neo still knowing how to move. If a martial artist was in the hospital for a stretch and his muscles atrophied a bit, he's still at least attempt to block a punch or try to fight back with his skills. While "reflex memory" is a very real thing as part of your kinesthetic sense,(definitely spelled wrong) but in Neo's case, he's be attempting Kung Fu moves but his reaction time would be waaay off.
ON the plus side, I'm glad they didint cop out and make Smith unable to take a punch in the real world because of the pain/tolerance diffrences betwen reality and the Martix.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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The software storage banks installed in every pod-person's cranium is what made it possible for Tank to download fighting-techniques into Neo.
The software is only accessible inside the Matrix, or Neo and Trinity could've put up more of a fight against Bane. Therefore, the techniques aren't written into the brain's coordination center like real training would be, but are written into the software department of the matrix-hardware. It isn't meant for Neo's real arms and legs, it is codes and algorithms for use inside the matrix.
Morpheus said it himself, "Do you think my strength or speed has anything to do with my muscles in this place?"
If Morpheus tells the truth, the opposite must be true also. A man proficient in martial arts outside the Matrix would be an impotent weakling if he were to be inserted into the matrix without Tank's precious discs.
Hypothetically, a person can kick a black belt's ass in a "Beat'em up"-computer game, but in the dojo it would be the opposite. The one's (no pun intended) reflexes are fine-tuned into controlling a few buttons, the other's are tuned into his entire body.
Omega: Your response surprises me. Muscle memory isn't something you believe in, the concept is a proven fact. That's what makes it possible for me to pick up a phone, while thinking of a person, and dial the person's number without even remembering I dialed it, I just did. Same with the button console next to the outer door of my building, my hand gets ready to enter the code when I approach the door, sometimes I surprise myself when finding myself inside the hallway with no memory of clicking the door-console. Muscle memory overrides conscious thought if properly conditioned, that's the goal with martial arts, to be able to act without having to plan first.
[ December 01, 2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Nim ]
Registered: Aug 1999
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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posted
Yes, to let your subconscious mind take over, and to (sorry) unlearn what you have learned, but it's still that grey blob up there exercizing control - just on a lower level.
Registered: Nov 1999
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If Morpheus tells the truth, the opposite must be true also. A man proficient in martial arts outside the Matrix would be an impotent weakling if he were to be inserted into the matrix without Tank's precious discs.
While your hardware-access explanation at least makes some rational sense, even if I don't buy it, this doesn't. Neo didn't forget how to walk when inserted into the Matrix, so why would a martial arts expert forget what he knew?
Registered: Mar 1999
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If Morpheus tells the truth, the opposite must be true also. A man proficient in martial arts outside the Matrix would be an impotent weakling if he were to be inserted into the matrix without Tank's precious discs.
While your hardware-access explanation at least makes some rational sense, even if I don't buy it, this doesn't. Neo didn't forget how to walk when inserted into the Matrix, so why would a martial arts expert forget what he knew?
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Nim: Omega: Your response surprises me. Muscle memory isn't something you believe in, the concept is a proven fact.
It'd be far too easy to put a Friends reference in here.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Neo knows Kung Fu inside and outside of the Matrix. He is aware of his knowledge outside the Matrix. "I know Kung Fu..."
Registered: Aug 1999
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Yes and no, Proteus, he felt that a part of his mind had been filled with new data. The only way he could show it to Morpheus was in their training-Matrix.
Omega: "While your hardware-access explanation at least makes some rational sense, even if I don't buy it, this doesn't. Neo didn't forget how to walk when inserted into the Matrix, so why would a martial arts expert forget what he knew?
Okay, one more time. The martial artist doesn't know how to fight with his cyber-parts any more than Thomas Anderson knew how to jump between two buildings. Outside the matrix the martial artist can fight excellent, but if he A: didn't train martial arts before getting liberated (upgrading his software the hard way), and B: hasn't upgraded his cybersoftware with Tank's discs, his cyber persona isn't equipped.
I didn't say Neo forgot how to walk when inserted into the Nebuchadnezzar-Matrix, he still had a Thomas Anderson cyber-persona to stand on. On the Nebuchadnezzar though, during his physical therapy, he had to learn to use his eyeglobes, walk and eat.
Registered: Aug 1999
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Just look at the way he punches Bane when he gets the chance, it's a lowly bar brawl technique. He isn't attempting any arm-locks, nerve pinches or kicks, just simple streetfighting. Same with Trinity.
Registered: Aug 1999
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Okay, our main point of disagreement here is that to your mind, the Matrix is indistinguishable from reality. You don't train your cyber-self and your real self each for the same tasks, because you don't have to. You know how to breathe in the Matrix, you can breathe in reality. You know how to remove a big metal tube from your throat in the matrix, you can do the same in reality, no relearning required.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Neither Neo, Trinity nor Morpheus needed to breathe in the Matrix, otherwise they would've been panting hard after the insanely long and demanding fights they endured. There is no atmosphere in the Matrix, it's a construct.
The thing is, Neo couldn't fly or stop bullets in reality. The place in his cyborg-brain that harbors those abilities also harbors his matrix-kung fu. He can imitate it in real life, but the only way to really have the same set of moves rehearsed in his real-life coordination center is to train kung fu in real life. Hence their sluggishness against Bane, who didn't fight any good himself, regardless of Mr Smith's original fighting-prowess.
Now, if we assume the two coordination-centers really were one and the same, Neo's limbs would be flinching faintly when sitting in the uplink-chair, like a sleeping dog/cat dreaming of running. He only flinches when being hit, though.
If I think real hard about a karate-match I once fought in, my arms and thighs can twitch in remembrance, subconsciously, as I imagine a sequence of kicks and punches.
Registered: Aug 1999
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