quote:That's clearly not the intention though. The idea is that Adama is a loose commander and was well before the attack. Tigh and Starbuck were drunk and fist-happy, respectively well before the Colonies were wiped out. Adama let it go then because the ship itself was on her way out and he knew that the likelyhood of Galactica facing any real, military combat situation was highly unlikely.
Adama was close to retirement, that's true, as was his ship, so he did run things a little more informally than he otherwise might have, but I don't think he was a loose commander - and certainly not a bad one. The fact that his ship survived the attack, survived over a year of constant engagements with the Cylons, herded 50,000 people safely through enemy territory and managed to find/raid supplies as needed, speaks to his ability as a commander and the abilities of the people under his command. It also points to him being pretty damn good at his job.
Tigh was a drinker under Adama's command, that's true - but as for Starbuck, where does the "fist happy" thing come from, the time she hit Tigh? If it's that you mean, even Tigh admitted that he turned the table over first - Starbuck was just defending herself. And she reported to the Brig herself, organised (with Tyrol) the transfer of the Mark II fighters to the landing bay that wasn't a gift shop, conducted recon, combat missions, everything under the sun...not the hallmarks of a terrible officer. A hotheaded one yes, but a bad one? No.
Adama ran the ship informally, but he wasn't a bad commander. And if you need a comparison just look at Nelena Cain - someone on the other side of the formality scale, and look at the crew she ended up with. If those two are my choices, I will pick Adama's slightly more informal style of command any time.
quote:Now, on the otherhand, he's faced with the situation you described. But make no mistake, Adama has these imperfect people because of the way he ran things before the Attack.
No, Adama has imperfect people because people are imperfect by their very nature, that is what it means to be human after all. To suggest otherwise would be to say that if Adama was more of a hardass the people serving under him would suddenly become something contrary to human nature.
Adama doesn't need the people under him to be perfect - he just needs them to be good at their jobs. You could be a complete asshole and still be good at your job, remember.
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I hadn't even considered, OnToMars, that you were refering to the DVDs. Weird (on my part).
(It seems to me that, regardless of the technical legalities, the popular public perception of the Maquis would be indelibly altered by the Dominion War. Before it, the Maquis are dangerous and destablizing radicals. Afterwards, they're radicals, yes, but ones who nevertheless saw the real enemy years before it became apparent. It also helps that most of them are now safely dead.)
And who says Lee is guilty of anything? They've glossed over it, and probably rightly so, considering their situation, but Adama clearly had no legal right to remove the president, and thus Lee was upholding his vow to the Articles of Colonization.
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quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Adama has these imperfect people because of the way he ran things before the Attack.
Well, his ship was about to be turned into a museum. I'm guessing the Colonial fleet assigned him some hard-luck cases (Lee Adama, excepted, not being 'assigned' to him at all) hoping maybe he'd iron them out, but if not, they wouldn't be in a position to do much harm. I think it's fair to assume that while capable, competent officers, these were not the cream of the Colonial crop. Hooray for ragtag.
Which isn't to say that you don't have a point. He does run an surprisingly loose ship. Seems to work.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: ...his ship survived the attack, survived over a year of constant engagements with the Cylons, herded 50,000 people safely through enemy territory and managed to find/raid supplies as needed...
Er, so has it been a year?
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This is a really minor little thing, but I thought i was a neat little FX thing. When the Pegasus is launching her vipers at the end, you can see her guns training out towards the Galactica.
Oh, and the whole thing with PegaSix just goes to show you that people can be as sick and depraved as the Cylons. Which was prolly the whole point.
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OnToMars
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quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: Adama was close to retirement, that's true, as was his ship, so he did run things a little more informally than he otherwise might have, but I don't think he was a loose commander - and certainly not a bad one. The fact that his ship survived the attack, survived over a year of constant engagements with the Cylons, herded 50,000 people safely through enemy territory and managed to find/raid supplies as needed, speaks to his ability as a commander and the abilities of the people under his command. It also points to him being pretty damn good at his job.
His ship survived the attack because it was the oldest, most unadvanced one in the fleet. Adama and crew got lucky and there was absolutely no extraordinary skill involved in their survival. The whole point of Galactica is that it isn't the Enterprise and they're not the creme of the crop on the flagship.
And it's become quite clear now that the Cylons' true intent is not to destroy the RTF, since they clearly know where they are (per "Final Cut") and, according to Cain, have been following them since the Attack. So I would say Adama's (and Roslin's for that matter) ability to keep the fleet alive against this hell-bent enemy is not quite the feat it seems.
Now I'm not saying this means they're not a good crew, or that I don't absolutely love each and every character and actor (except for Boomer/Grace Park, not really a big fan), because I do. I love that the people in this show are so largely and completely flawed and messed up, and yet they still do their jobs and do them well. But I'm afraid your statement just doesn't hold water, considering circumstances.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: Tigh was a drinker under Adama's command, that's true - but as for Starbuck, where does the "fist happy" thing come from, the time she hit Tigh? If it's that you mean, even Tigh admitted that he turned the table over first - Starbuck was just defending herself. And she reported to the Brig herself, organised (with Tyrol) the transfer of the Mark II fighters to the landing bay that wasn't a gift shop, conducted recon, combat missions, everything under the sun...not the hallmarks of a terrible officer. A hotheaded one yes, but a bad one? No.
I'm not saying she's a bad officer. Well, okay, I am. She's a good pilot and a bad officer. But being what the military considers a bad officer is points in my book. She may be this amazing pilot, but she still, when you get right down to it, insubordinate. Nobody should be able to hit the XO and get away with it. In fact, in the podcast for "Pegasus," RDM says essentially that.
When Cain calls out Adama for all these failures - drunk XO, insubordinate pilot, crewmen fraternizing with the enemy, Adama can't say anything because it's all true. Sure, Cain is deeply flawed herself, she's just as strict as Adama is loose, but she still has a point, and that's what's so compelling (and I agree, I'd take Adama's Galactica over Cain's Pegasus anyday).
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: Adama ran the ship informally, but he wasn't a bad commander. And if you need a comparison just look at Nelena Cain - someone on the other side of the formality scale, and look at the crew she ended up with. If those two are my choices, I will pick Adama's slightly more informal style of command any time.
He is a bad commander. He gets too close: too close to his XO, to his best pilot, to his CAG. He's not a perfect man. He's also a good commander in many ways. It's because both exist in him that I love the character so much.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: No, Adama has imperfect people because people are imperfect by their very nature, that is what it means to be human after all. To suggest otherwise would be to say that if Adama was more of a hardass the people serving under him would suddenly become something contrary to human nature.
People are imperfect, it's the whole point of the show. And I'm not saying if Adama were more of a hardass than it would be the Starship Enterprise. But it would be a tighter ship. It'd also be a more boring show.
quote:Originally posted by FawnDoo: You could be a complete asshole and still be good at your job, remember.
Oh I know, I love the character of Colonel Tigh, personally.
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quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: His ship survived the attack because it was the oldest, most unadvanced one in the fleet. Adama and crew got lucky and there was absolutely no extraordinary skill involved in their survival. The whole point of Galactica is that it isn't the Enterprise and they're not the creme of the crop on the flagship.
I would have said the Galactica escaped infection by the Cylon virus because it was an older and lower tech ship, but that isn't why it survived the attack. It survived the attack because her commander and crew pulled a series of rabbits out of the hat and were pretty damn good at what they do. Tigh and Adama made a tactical assessment and Tigh dug up the records about Ragnar having the ammo they needed. Gaeta calculated what seemed to be a difficult FTL jump to put them right on top of the anchorage. Starbuck and Tyrol co-ordinated the creation of an effective fighter squadron from the ground up. Starbuck later went on to reduce the number of nukes about to hit the Galactica from three to one and when that one did hit, Tigh made the call to vent the air in the landing pod and so saved the ship and all aboard.
Galactica didn't survive because she was low tech and got lucky - she survived because the people crewing her were sharp and managed to put two and two together faster than the crews of 118 other Battlestars. I mean come on, throughout the miniseries they point out again and again that entire Battlestars lost all power when engaging the enemy. No-one else at any point thought "Hang on, the enemy we're about to engage is an expert at hacking networks, and we're in an advanced Battlestar with a network?" Did Admiral Nagala not read any "Windows for Dummies" books then? Or did the part about maybe switching off your network get cut off when they sliced off the corner of every page?
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: And it's become quite clear now that the Cylons' true intent is not to destroy the RTF
I don't think their final intentions can be guessed at right now, but I think destruction of humanity is up there on the agenda. Even Boomer mk 2 acknowledged this in "Flight of the Phoenix" - her being aboard the ship didn't mean the Cylons wouldn't try to take it out.
I like the crew too - and as a lifelong Trek fan it's nice to finally see a crew that bear some resemblance to actual human beings (DS9 excepted - they got it right there) and not perfect mannequins with a faint air of smugness about them. However I still think that despite being flawed, they're all good at what they do.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: When Cain calls out Adama for all these failures - drunk XO, insubordinate pilot, crewmen fraternizing with the enemy, Adama can't say anything because it's all true. Sure, Cain is deeply flawed herself, she's just as strict as Adama is loose, but she still has a point, and that's what's so compelling (and I agree, I'd take Adama's Galactica over Cain's Pegasus anyday).
Given that Cain murdered crewmen herself (simply because he objected to her taking the ship into a tactical blunder), managed to lose 800 of her own crew (that would be another tactical blunder) and countenances the remaining crew forming rape gangs to enjoy themselves with a prisoner, I'm thinking her authority to call Adama on any of his failings is extremely limited.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: He is a bad commander. He gets too close: too close to his XO, to his best pilot, to his CAG. He's not a perfect man. He's also a good commander in many ways. It's because both exist in him that I love the character so much.
I see what you mean and like I say, I admit he has made the occasional questionable call, but I think to label him as being a bad officer and a bad commander is a little harsh. The situation he is in means he has to make decisions and find solutions that fit the circumstances - it's a matter of survival, is all, and he is a pragmatic man trying to pull those around him through difficult times.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Oh I know, I love the character of Colonel Tigh, personally.
Agreed - now if only he would dump Ellen, he'd be fine. Every time those two are together in a scene it's like Macbeth in space!
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: Er, so has it been a year?
*cough* Errrr, our time, yes. You got me - my mistake, I'm still in Trek "1 season = 1 year" mode, sorry about that. How long has it been Galactica time, four or five months? Still, impressive that they managed to survive that long!
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True, but by that point they had already been kicked seven ways till Sunday by the Cylons and managed to come through more or less ok....but yeah, Roslin taking the King Arthur tack probably contributed a good bit to their long-term survival.
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Okay, I was watching the Galactica rerun tonight (don't remember the episode title), but it's the one that starts with Tigh interrogating Tyrol and accusing him of being a Cylon. Anyway, Tyrol is trying to defend himself, and one of the things he says is that he's served on Battlestars since he was 19, and lists them: Pegasus, Columbia, Atlantia and Galactica. Interesting, although if Pegasus was his first assignment, Admiral Cain was probably not even a Commander yet. But he may have friends still among the crew...
posted
Hmmm... how old is the Pegasus? I mean, if it's supposed to be newer than the Galactica, maybe Tyrol served aboard the previous one. Well, how old is Tyrol, BTW?
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And Pegasus? Well, Galactica is about 50, right? There's no telling how much newer Pegasus is, although she was supposedly undergoing overhaul at the time of the attack. One would expect that she's hardly BRAND new, and could be in fact nearly as old as Galactica.
posted
Tyrol's not that old -- late twenties, mid-thirties. If we assume he joined up when he was eighteen, he could have served upon Pegasus when he was a green rook -- maybe the ship was brand new then, who knows? I think its clear Pegasus is not near as old as Galactica -- one look at the interiors of the two should convince anyone of that. Pegasus has a much more automated-friendly design of a society forgetting the lessons that Bill Adama refused to.
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