posted
I just got around to the DVDs a few weeks ago. I ran out of commenting steam in that other thread, but I figure the scope here is more limited. Also I've already watched half of it.
I guess if for some reason you are avoiding finding out what happens in the fifth season of Angel, you should avoid this thread, which probably won't be difficult.
But first, a total digression: as I recall, no one seemed all that excited by the last season of Buffy, but I just finished watching that for the first time, and thought it was pretty good. OK, so the decidedly nonrigorous mythology was showing signs of wear and tear (a problem that will come up in Angel too), and Giles didn't get to do much of anything. And they cut Anya nearly in half. Which was actually awesome, even though she was totally the best character. Anyway, I liked it, so there.
As for Angel, it is too bad about Charisma Carpenter, though it wasn't like the real Cordelia had been in season four, either. (Another sidetrack: After Connor was edited out of existence ((And if Wolfram & Hart had that kind of power. . . well, that is a lot of power. It's like creating Dawn; if you could do that, you'd think you could bypass all sorts of other plot-related problems. But anyway.)) what does everyone think they've been doing for the past two years? There isn't a lot of non-Connor related plot left. How do they explain Jasmine now?)
Highlights of season five so far: Wesley shooting what he thinks is his father. (Cyborg ninjas though? I hope they do something with this plot.) I sure am glad they weren't actually reforming the Watchers Council, that being one of those mythology elements that generally made no sense. Or, rather, that the old Watchers aren't reforming it, but instead Giles and Buffy along presumably less stupid lines. And the general misadventures of disembodied Spike.
I hope Lindsey has some plan beyond messing with Angel and/or general mayhem-causing. I think it might be more interesting if he had come back to work, since a less evil Wolfram & Hart would seem to fit him better.
[Finally, how hot is Sarah Thompson? A lot, is the answer.]
Anyway, next I'll watch "You're Welcome," and let you know something or other.
(Also, while I am aware of certain unpleasent outcomes for cute women with strangely masculine names, I would appreciate it if we could avoid talking about episodes until I get to them, which means we're up to "Damage," about the insane girl who happens to be a slayer, and Andrew is your go-to guy for insane slayer duty? Uh, OK.)
Registered: Mar 1999
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Wesley shooting his father was an excellent moment. As long as it's just his life at stake, fine, he'll let his dad kill him if he can still foil the plot. But the instant he threatens Fred, Wesley doesn't even hesitate. I like that.
Lindsey does have a somewhat larger agenda, and he'll get an interesting role later on. Especially the last ep. As for Andrew, he was sent because he's low-profile. Nobody would expect HIM, of all people, to double-cross Angel. Also, he probably didn't have anything else useful to do. :-)
My personal favorite moments of early season 5 that come to mind at the moment:
"El Diablo Robotico." We named a project in Microprocessors after that. Turned out far more appropriate than we originally imagined.
Spike and Angel spend half the episode beating the crap out of each other, fighting for the privelege of drinking from the cup of perpetual torment, and... "It's... Mountain Dew." Brilliant delivery.
"It's got laser battles, it's got heart, it's got a timely message of interstellar poverty! It's the grapes of wrath, in space!"
"To sacrifice a goat, press one!"
"NOBODY! REPLACES! THE TONER"!
Registered: Mar 1999
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Ah, yes. "Did you know the Devil built a robot?"
So, "You're Welcome." Odd. Because it is like Cordelia stumbles in from years earlier. Then she even watches an old episode. Speaking of which, Lindsey calling himself Doyle seemed cool as far as self-referentiality goes, but in retrospect not particularly wise. I'm just not sure about him. He wants Angel's job? And also just to bring him down? That was more Lilah's thing. Anyway. Now he has superpowers!
One of which, those tattoos, well: if they don't just keep the senior partners from spying on you, but regular video cameras (And laser beams? How is that working, exactly?) from seeing you as well, how come everyone isn't wearing them? OK, so there's a spell to shut them off (after which apparently the cast of Sliders comes and gets you ((but I kid menacing portal effects))), but still.
Going back to Jasmine, apparently everyone remembers her, and Cordelia giving birth to her, but that's only half the story.
Now Lindsey has, uh, broken into the. . . warp core? (I did not actually write anything down while watching, so this is faux-spontanaety. It is a weird set though.)
I was going to be angry that Spike's video game had old time, Donkey Kong-esque noises, but then he turns out to actually be playing Donkey Kong. But on an Xbox? I like how he is angry enough to shake it when he loses, but not hard enough to damage it. He has his priorities.
Incidentally, where was Lindsey getting the information for his "visions?" I guess he could have set up that first vampire attack. But what about the crazy slayer? From Eve, I guess, only I'm not sure anyone at Wolfram & Hart had figured it out before Lindsey told Spike. I could, you know, go back and check, but it would mean swapping disks.
Biting Cordelia to see if she is a demon or not is, well, maybe not a good idea, but at least Spike was double-checking. Also it is good thinking on Lindsey's part, since Cordelia was part demon until some nebulous point in the past. (Though, OK, I was under the impression that giving her the demon nature was necessary for Connor's conception, but if she was part demon when giving birth, I don't see a point when she would have stopped being part demon after that.)
You'd think the firm would have rethought this heavy reliance on zombie-based security systems after last year. Indiana Jones-style dart guns would have been much more effective. But speaking of zombies and last year, who are all these Wolfram & Hart employees anyway? What happened to "It's killing everyone" and "It's hunting down all our assets" and "There totally aren't any Wolfram & Hart employees left alive, for sure?" These people, Knox for instance, act like they've been working there for years.
A giant crab is inside the warp core.
Wire work!
Oh, also, getting Harmony to rough up Eve doesn't exactly absolve Angel of the moral responsibility. Harmony's happy to have found a job that (sort of) plays to her strengths, though.
In the end, I am unsatisfied with the departures of both Lindsey and Cordelia. What was the True Hollywood Story behind the latter, anyway?
Registered: Mar 1999
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My guy tells me there may have been some residual bad blood, that Charisma had unexpectedly needed some me-time when she was taken up (so far as I know, unexplained), and returned to uncomfortable Connor on Cordi scenes, and bytheby here is Amy Acker to take up the voluptuous hottie mantle.
Oooh, you gots so much good stuff ahead of you. Although I did like Season Seven of Buffy, the problem I had was that the potentials and other guests of necessity tended to distract from the power core of the Buffy regulars we'd come to adore (after all that build-up what did Dawn really have to do after the episode "Potential"?) Anyways I found I wanted more and more, and Angel provided.
There was some silliness here and there, but overall they really brought those characters up and over. It's exciting to watch a show with real and dynamic character arcs. I expect it's like a profoundly better soap opera, but with monsters and shit. No wait, nevermind.
Unmentioned in this thread, but "Harm's Way" did make me happy. Also Nina, the werewolf girl? Come on people. That Mountain Dew thing was so classic. As was El Diablo Robotico, still makes me smile.
Coming up, you got some great stuff. Not right away, but soon. I don't want to build it up too much, but I'm going to anyway. "Hole In The World" was sort of a revelation to me about just how awesome TV can be. Wow.
So keep going, and report back soon. I've recently completed my set of Whedon-watching so I'm spoiling to spoil.
Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:I was going to be angry that Spike's video game had old time, Donkey Kong-esque noises, but then he turns out to actually be playing Donkey Kong. But on an Xbox?
Emulation is a wonderful thing.
quote:But speaking of zombies and last year, who are all these Wolfram & Hart employees anyway?
There are branches of W&H all over the world, they probably just transferred in from one of those.
Oh, and I totally forgot to mention: "After all, it's Smile Time!" "No it's not. It's time to kick your ass all the way back to HELL!"
Registered: Mar 1999
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They do mention, though, that the beast wasn't stopping with the L.A. office. Or so I recall.
"Why We Fight"
I saw this one the first time, actually, before I decided to not watch any of the then-current episodes, so as to later enjoy them all in sequence.
I like it, though I do wonder about Angel's post-soul history. (Also, how does the government circa 1943 stay informed about sneaky vampires when they are presumably not checking in at Ellis Island?) Namely, he is pretty out of it when he arrives in America, then here and in the 1950s he seems to have things more or less figured out. Note how easily he fakes being an in-charge military type. Then in the 1970s he is all twitchy, leading to his sketchy 1990s period.
And Spike doesn't seem to know anything about Angel's change of heart, which is consistent, but that means that Darla, who did know, apparently never mentioned it to anyone. Which is interesting.
I really like the horror-meets-spy/wartime thriller genre, even though it would seem to play havoc with the secret history aspect of something like Angel. When so many people know the secret, your world should look radically different. Oh well.
I can't quite say why, but I also like the guy playing the Initiative agent. Not that he does much. I guess I just believe him as a shadowy government agent working the vampire beat.
And, yes, nice irony with the Nazi experiment presaging the Initiative's own, only I'm not sure what my reaction is supposed to be, because the show goes to some lengths to convince me that vampires are just plain bad, so I'm not really that concerned if the government wants to experiment on them. Especially since, Professor Walsh's wacky side project aside, the Initiative's version seemed wholly benign.
On a similar note, while there wasn't time for it here, I wonder why they don't consider re-ensouling the odd semi-repentant or at least nuanced vampire. It doesn't seem like too much trouble. Harmony, for instance. Or, actually, in this case, Angel could have mentioned it as a possibility, even if only as a bluff.
Registered: Mar 1999
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This episode seemed out of place to me. Like akwardly so. I mean walking across the ocean is very cool, and submarines + Nazis + vampires, what's not to like? It didn't fit here, like maybe should have been from a previous season or something. I thought the other guest vamps on the submarine and specifically how they were treated was very funny though.
Registered: Sep 2000
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I do feel strangely sorry for the Prince of Lies, who was so clearly not prepared to be plucked from, I imagine, his picturesque Romanian castle and tossed into a submarine.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Then in the 1970s he is all twitchy, leading to his sketchy 1990s period.
He was in Vietnam, IIRC, maybe that had something to do with it.
quote:I wonder why they don't consider re-ensouling the odd semi-repentant or at least nuanced vampire. It doesn't seem like too much trouble.
I'm reminded of the episode of Buffy where the guy dying of cancer wants to be vamped, in order to not die. Might've been interesting to see what changes Willow might've wrought, besides fixing up Ilyria/Fred, if she'd come by later in the show. She could well have re-ensouled Harmony. Though there seem to be some moral quandries involved. I mean, forcing a departed soul back into a vampire body isn't that happy a thing. Spike adjusted well, but he wanted it, and he'd had the chip for two years. Angel almost went back to eating people WITH a soul. Sure, the good guys can kill normal vampires, they're just the walking undead, but what about ones with souls? Then you're forced to try and reason with them before dusting them.
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I imagine his 1990s state had something to do with his guilt over feeding off that guy in the diner.
As far as the ethics of re-ensouling go, guilt trumps death, I'd think, and also would we really consider vampires moral agents (and therefore deserving of making their own choices)?
[I have a sort of semi-complicated theory about Buffyverse vampire ethics, but I am already at the brink of dangerous shut-in-ness.]
"Smile Time"
Oh man, I don't know. Like, there is that moment in "Once More With Feeling" when the singing first starts and you just don't know. This was like that, only I never quite made it through to the other side. Because, you know. I think you have to find puppet Angel adorable to really get the full effect. Having said that, the character who communicated solely through solitary honks is now my favorite.
Spike coming in and asking for a new car because he drove the last one "into the drink" is great. The show should just randomly cut to Spike having bizarre 1970s cop show-style adventures. (Though, is he on the payroll now, or what is the deal? I like Spike, and he makes an interesting counterpart to Angel now, but I'm not sure they really know what to do with him.)
When I did this the last time I actually took notes, but I've quit because it seemed like too much work. But now I find myself with not a whole lot to say.
I'm not sure what to make of Angel's new relationship, or potentional relationship, in regards to his curse, but that is mostly because the rules of the curse are very fuzzy. He should probably err on the side of caution, though.
Nice to see Wesley and Fred together. I'm sure there is no tragedy or heartbreak coming up.
I also like Gunn's whole lawyer deal. I hope there is more to his losing it than this doctor's machinations.
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I haven't listened to the commentary track yet, nor am I clear on the details of the show's cancellation (like announcement dates specifically), so I wonder whether this plot was thought up before or after it was clear that season five was going to be it. Because this is awfully bleak, which is saying something. But there's a thin line between intense and impressive darkness and making me uncomfortable and sad.
Oh well. But to minimize these strange "feelings" you earthmen prize, here is some nitpicking: Since when has there been a "conduit" in the white room? For that matter, since when has there been a white room? Didn't Gunn report finding a howling void in its place? He mentions an idea for contacting the senior partners by other means, but is interrupted by his fading lawyer skills. Yet here it is with no explanation. (Also, the bit about the conduit taking form based on the observer is out of nowhere too, but I can accept that as a new behavior of this specific entity, which may not be the same as the panther.)
Nitpick two: Having Wesley's metabooks suddenly able to access every book ever is, I think, arbitrary and clumsy exposition.
There. Now, Amy Acker (Though, Mr. X, voluptuous? I wonder about your definition of slender.) will hopefully soon be starring in everything.
Starting out with a flashback to happier times can never be a good sign. I'm not sure what to make of such a flashback that then cuts to a scene from Aliens.
I guess my problem with this episode, to the extent I have one, is that all the character stuff is really great, but it is hitched to a plot that feels a little. . . sparse in places.
(Re cavemen v. astronauts: Assuming present day astronauts, many or most can be assumed to have extensive military training. Organizational cunning is at least a match for raw strength.)
Lorne's sudden realization just before Fred collapses is a good moment. This is a pretty good episode for Lorne in general. Also great with only a little screentime: Eve.
I'm not sure about Wesley shooting that lawyer guy. Sure, it is intense and extreme. On second thought, maybe it is in fact totally awesome.
I enjoyed Angel and Spike's discomfort with flying.
But this Deepest Well here doesn't seem all that heavily guarded.
When Gunn attacks (and kills?) Knox, it seems like there's some whispery background noise, which I am assuming is a sign of ominous conduit-related interference. It is probably not a good idea to kill the one guy with inside knowledge of what's going on.
And the rest is moving and sad, but I am not a good reviewer.
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