posted
Masao, when I was a kid, I remember Empire left me cold as well. I distinctly recall explaining to my mother that Darth Vader was not Luke's father, could not be. That's probably because I was seven. And because at the end of ANH you have a farm-boy from butt-fuck nowhere flying his four-winged space-fighter in and destroying a planet-killing super-weapon the size of a moon thereby thwarting the plans of the evilest guy you've ever seen and winning a big medal on his chest from the princess. (What's not to like?) In ESB the princess kisses the wrong guy, some silly green puppet talks backwards, and the same ex-farm-boy cries a lot while barely escaping with his life (if not both his hands) and some confusing thing where the baddest guy evar is his dad.
And to that end, I still prefer ANH. It's just bigger, and for me, yes, bigger is better. But as someone who has studied film and who makes films, I would also argue that the dialogue and performances in Empire is the best of the Holy Trilogy. There are some terrific detail points about the characters, we learn more about the force, the effects look better than they did in ANH, and the human stories are far richer and more complex. Plus Han Solo's not such a bad guy when you get to be a little older. A lot of my friends (many of them also film-makers) prefer ESB. I expect it's a matter of taste.
posted
While I like ESB best, nothing in any of the movies compares to when Luke first activates his green sabre and starts kicking ass wholesale.
That's why I remain a fan.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
He sure went to town. Pity they showed no limbs or blood, maybe he had lowered the voltage knob from "scalpel" to "Tazering sting".
In retrospect, Bobba Fett must've gotten a mild anxiety attack from suddenly standing face to face with a lightsaber-wielder again, after 20 years of distancing himself from what happened to his pa.
One of the things I like with "Empire..." is the increase in image crispiness and the polished shine and hi-tech splendor of the sets in the movie. From Vader's helmet to Cloud City, it really is like seeing another galaxy.
Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Imagine Boba having to see old clonetroopers- it'd be like a vision of his own mortality wherever he went (unless they have some sort of incept-date that just kills them before the Empire goes broke from vetran's benifits).
I figure Luke's sabre just cauterizes the wounds it makes and there's only blood spilled when a limb (or torso!) is completely severed.
I'd love to see Luke as a Jedi Master fight with all the force powers Obi Wan and the old gang used.
I wonder if Luke is chock full o' Midiclorians or if he's just adverage Jedi material.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
In the EU, he was chock-full of it alright, even moreso than Windu or Yoda ever were. B)
[ May 30, 2005, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Cartman ]
Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Nim: I'm with you on the look of TESB. While ANH certainly had a look that was unique to SciFi at the time, the movie just looked cleaner than the others, where ANH felt grainier and ROTJ felt cartoonish. (The camoflage smocks I thought were pathetic even as a 6-year-old.)
And I think part of the reason I like it better has something to do with what Jason just said: we see a competent force user in TESB. Now, that user is evil, but I always found it refreshing to see competence (almost) win the day and not a magic-Jedi-proton-torpedo taking out a planetoid.
As for a chock-full-of-midichlorians-Luke, I would say that that isn't impossible to write well, it's just much harder. And it requires a good grasp for making something metaphysical understandable and inspiring. To quote a reviewer of ROTS, Lucas plays with archetypes the way normal people push checkers across a board. It's fun to do because it's your movie, but it doesn't paint a coherent picture. I'll leaven that statement with one little feature from AOTC I thought was masterful: the way Qui-Gon used the force to "legally" get Anakin off Tatooine. That's the kind of subtlety you have to employ in conjunction with well-orchestrated and busy fight scenes.
There is one movie (haven't read the book yet) that I thought got much closer to doing a young-protagonist-chock-full-of-expertise battle of wills better. The Count of Monte Cristo. I always watched that movie thinking Jim Caviezal acted not too far off of how I would have liked Luke to have acted post "Dark Empire": balanced perspective and willing to use the force for something more aggressive than deflecting laser bolts.
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Among other things, Empire is great because it's the one with Yoda. Sure, he was technically in Jedi, also, but only long enough to die.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by David Sands: And I think part of the reason I like it better has something to do with what Jason just said: we see a competent force user in TESB. Now, that user is evil, but I always found it refreshing to see competence (almost) win the day and not a magic-Jedi-proton-torpedo taking out a planetoid.
I think that's whay the first half of Jedi works so well- we know what Vader can do, we saw Luke get his ass kicked with it and, finally we get to see Luke come into his own.
I recall delight at seeing Luke force choke the guards at Jabba's palace and his using the ol' Jedi Mind Trick on Jabba's henchman.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Jason: I had completely forgotten about that choke. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged
-------------------- "Brave men are vertebrates: they have their softness on the outside, and their toughness in the middle" -Lewis Carrol
Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
posted
I don't think you can underestimate the cliff hanger ending. When I got my mates who had never seen the films to watch them over a couple of weeks a few years ago, they were all surprised when Empire actually finished. One declared that it was "fucking cheeky" and that if he'd have had to wait another 3 years, he'd have gone and kicked Lucus in the neck.
Empire may be the film with a "middle, middle and middle", but Jedi is the one that goes "end, middle, end". It suffers from the fact that the first 30 minutes is basically "rescue Han", and then the film stops and starts again with "attack the Empire". Vadar and co don't even pop up again until after Jabba is disposed of (apart from the opening 2 minutes, obviously). I think it suffers the most there...after the tension of Empire it's just a bit too silly.
On the other hand, once Luke arrives on the Death Star things pick up tremendously. There's real tension and excitement there. For one of my friends, that part is the only bit in any film where he actually likes Luke.
(And finally, it's obvious to point out but..."I love you", "I know" is brilliant beyond words.)
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
I'm sure Harrison Ford is proud of himself for it.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Omega: I'm sure Harrison Ford is proud of himself for it.
Considering that he'd apparently said just about every other phrase in the English language just prior, he shouldn't be too smug.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
-------------------- "Brave men are vertebrates: they have their softness on the outside, and their toughness in the middle" -Lewis Carrol
Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
