posted
Put it another way.. if we DO walk away from Iraq before our task of rebuilding it is complete, we ARE aiding the terrorists and the fanatics.
Afghanistan is the perfect object lesson for this.
Therefore, those who make the nonsensical comparisons to Vietnam to further their own ambitions, suggesting that the endeavor is too costly to maintain (note that they have not yet proposed an alternative plan, only criticisms - there's a word for that), are in effect saying that we should pull out early, which in effect aids the bad guys.
It's not a direct link, but it's not an unreasonable jump of logic, either. Note that nobody (except the paranoids of the board) is suggesting that anyone believes that this 'support' is deliberate or intentional. But, just as ignoring the screams from a burning building is not the same as setting the building on fire, the ends are the same.
Thus endeth the lesson.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
Being serious for a moment this is a war. I don't like it either. Politicians are always on the egde of going martial law any way. And this stuff has really got them fired up. Really its bugged me to the point I almost agree with them, but I can never agree that people should lose the right of free speach. Stuff like this could be the only victory for the terrorist. screwing up our society and getting us at each others throats.
IP: Logged
quote:Afghanistan is the perfect object lesson for this.
Thereby indicating another aspect of Mr. Bush's policy in shambles??
And the point of Mr. Rumsfeld's words are not to point to critical Juxtaposition between Iraq and Vietnam, no, Rumsfeld wants us to be good little people like Britney Spears who says, "Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that."
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Afghanistan is the perfect object lesson for this.
Thereby indicating another aspect of Mr. Bush's policy in shambles??
No, actually I was referring to post-Soviet-expulsion, pre-Taliban Iraq. (Many think that the two events were concurrent. They are wrong.), and thusly the failures Reagan, of Bush I and Clinton.
quote: And the point of Mr. Rumsfeld's words are not to point to critical Juxtaposition between Iraq and Vietnam, no,
Because there isn't any. 6 months does not equate with 10 years. .5% of the budget does not equate with 12% of the budget. 300- deaths does not equate with 58,000+ deaths. Anyone who tells you Iraq equates with Vietnam is lying their ass off.
quote:Rumsfeld wants us to be good little people like Britney Spears who says, "Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that."
Paging Mecha-Streisand! Funny how celebrity opinions only count when you agree with them.
When I am Emperor, "news" organizations will be allowed to report on the political opinions of celebrities not running for public office, but only if the "reporter" is wearing a clown suit and speaks in off-accented syllables while the "Three Stooges" theme music plays in the background:
"toDAY marTIN sheen SAID that HE" *whoop de doop, whoop de doop* "supPORted HOWard DEAN beCAUSE quote 'BUSH is A klinGON.' film AT eLEVen. *doodle de doop de doo*"
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"Put it another way.. if we DO walk away from Iraq before our task of rebuilding it is complete, we ARE aiding the terrorists and the fanatics."
On that we can at least agree. It's too late to pull out, anyway. Bush knew of and was warned well in advance about the consequences war would bring. He wittingly accepted those consequences from the moment US troops crossed the border. Rebuilding Iraq and restoring any semblance of order is his responsibility now. Abandoning that task would be 1) an affront to the Iraqi people, 2) disastrous for the entire region, and 3) a serious loss of face which the US can ill-afford.
Besides, there's still that nagging WMD issue...
Registered: Nov 1999
| IP: Logged
Well, Iraq certainly has the chance of turning into a mire starting qith quag.
And there is certinly something in the complete mis understanding and mishandling of the situations.
Rumsfeld's message is crystal clear: Opposed or criticize the administration, and you�re a terrorist coddler.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Well, Iraq certainly has the chance of turning into a mire starting qith quag.
Once we're there 1/2 of the length of time we were in Vietnam, with 1/2 the casualties, then maybe I'll consider that a potentially valid point.
Right now it's less of a quagmire than the former Yugoslavia was/is.
Of course, today's media's idea of a 'quagmire' is 'anything that lasts longer than your average commercial break.' If they can't tie up all the loose ends in a 2-hour special finale episode, they think it can't be done.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
At the very least we should be able to criticize Mr. Bush and his cohorts about this mess we shoudn't be in in the first place without being called a terrorist coddler.
Turns out I don't march too well in lock-step.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
I objected to the attack on Iraq as there was no concrete justification to do so.
Rumsfield says that all who object to the American policy on Iraq must therefore support terrorism, directly, or indirectly.
I say, therefore I am.
I'm basing this on Cartman's quote, which I believe is from the article, which I can't access.
quote:"See how much more fun it is when you find a purpose. Having your social order shook up by totaly illogical strikes from out of no where by someone whose attitude makes no sense, Has actually made you come together. Your society has been changed. For the better. Or not."
It could cut both ways. *GASP* I DID IT AGAIN!!! LOOK AT ME!!! I SUPPORT TERRORISM!!! THEREFORE I MUST BE A TERRORIST!!!
quote:"Put it another way.. if we DO walk away from Iraq before our task of rebuilding it is complete, we ARE aiding the terrorists and the fanatics."
On that we can at least agree. It's too late to pull out, anyway. Bush knew of and was warned well in advance about the consequences war would bring. He wittingly accepted those consequences from the moment US troops crossed the border. Rebuilding Iraq and restoring any semblance of order is his responsibility now. Abandoning that task would be 1) an affront to the Iraqi people, 2) disastrous for the entire region, and 3) a serious loss of face which the US can ill-afford.
Besides, there's still that nagging WMD issue...
Agreed. But I am somewhat torn about the idea that the U.N. should have a role in rebuilding Iraq. On the one hand, it IS the U.N.'s mandate, and it would be folly for them not to participate. On the other hand, should the U.N. play janitor to the U.S.'s messes?
On the other side, some hawkish diplomats say that the U.N. should be consulted as the U.S. would appreciate the help, but other diplomats say that the U.N. is a useless rotten piece of junk and should be left that way.
And then there is that nagging WMD issue. How long has it been, hmmm?
Jay: We're too late. I'm heading off to the local corner store for a few sticks of dynamite and C4. Care to join me?
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Already got mine. I'll meet you at the secret location.
Watch, I'll probably get a call from the F.B.I. now.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
So we boil them in large containers full of butter?
M'Kay...
So we've all come to the conclusion that the current powers that be are NOT handeling the middle east situations in a way that will work in either the short OR long term....right?
So: does any of Bush's political detractors (and presidential hopefuls) have a plan for Afganistan? we've kind of left them hanging there.... I've also not heard ANY set plan by ANYBODY to work with the local clerics and existing police agencies to eliminate terrorism. The plan seems to be that our presence alone in the region will make these terrible people cower or reconsider their fanatical ways. Should'nt we be making a kind of middle-east Interepol that can travel between arab nations and is composed mostly by arabs to stop this problem? The local populations sure as hell are'nt going to aid westerners so mabye they'll assist thir own people. The UN could oversee the agency.
Hell it's just a wild thought bur anything beats no plan at all.......
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
Mountain Man
Ex-Member
posted
Jason your reasoning is sound. Thats a good idea.Ps I'm not entering into the coversation just giving credit where credit is due.
IP: Logged
posted
Unless, of course, the local populations view the Arab interpol as an agent of the US or western interests in general. Islamists in particular would probably have something to say about a police force which presumeably wouldn't enforce sharia (sp?) law.
On the other ahnd something does have to be done, paticularly to contain Islamic fanatacism and fundamentalism.
As for Iraq, yes it is far too late to pull out now and hopefully it won't turn into anything like Vietnam. But what worries me is the apparent lack of after war planning by the US and UK governments. Surely they must have realised that after the war they would be effectively in charge of the place and held responsible by the locals?
Finally Rummy's comments are just plain silly; just because you do not agree with a government's actions or policies does not automatically mean that you support the terrorists.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
