Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
Well, for one, France has promised help to Lebanon to restore order, something they can't very well do while Israel keeps blowing shit up, and for two, there are about 20K French citizens living over there whom they wouldn't like to fall victim to Israel's actions of "self-defense", so...
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Not that I'd put it that way, but kidnapping Israeli troops and sustained rocket attacks is certainly "asking for it"...it's certainly no blank check though...
Which they have been given anyway.
quote:...and Israeli forces have shown much restraint in their targets, it seems (if you have an alternate POV, I'd love to hear it).
Yes, so much restraint that of the 200+ people killed so far, a staggering 13 of them weren't civilians. Whatever "justification" Israel had for leveling all of Lebanon to eliminate Hezbollah (which, I might add, they've been trying for twenty years but can never succeed at because, like all countries dealing with terrorists, they think bombs can change the mentality of a people), it's gone now.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
They won't be able to change the mentality of people being supported and aided constantly by a terrorist group, sorry, a political party like Hezbollah. These nice guys are doing the job that the Lebanese government is failing to perform: give education, housing and food to the poor people in Lebanon. The same strategy the narcs at Cali have done in Colombia.
Can you blame the low-level, uneducated people to support their "saviors"? No, you can't. Look, Hezbollah falls VERY short in my appreciation (being the responsibles of the Israeli mutual bombing here in Buenos Aires exactly 12 years ago, and still without a serious trial followed in our country). But still, the Lebanese people are not to blame. The Israeli incursion takes the same rationale the US is pulling for the attacks in Iraq. And I can't approve that, at all. Or justify it by any means, even if they're right about part of the situation.
Registered: Jan 2001
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France could very well offer all of the financial support Hamas needed, with the bonuses that it can get the guy back, possibly even alive, and, show the Muslims, Hey, we aren't like Amerika, and maybe not get bombed in the future. A good card for France to play on keeping the Muslims happy, not so good for world opinion.
France could also put a bunch of 'invited' troops in to Lebanon, drive down to the border, mark a line a foot in to Israel, and say, Do not cross! With the US backing Israel they could do it just out of spite.
Doc, you can change that first sentence of the second paragraph to: Can you blame the high-level, over educated people to support their Bush. No, you can't. Adding all the stupidity of maintaining party lines no matter the social or economic costs.
I think you are wrong about the rationale their Doc, Jason had a point of 20-30 years of attacks, as opposed to two big ones. Also, I can justify either of them, depending on the propaganda I choose to spout.
Cartman, unlike in Iraq, here I would argue the point of what a civialian is. What the press wants to call a civilian and what I would call a civilian are going to be to completely different things. If fanatics didn't use the young so often for their needs I may be more apt to believe the press. If an eight year old girl walked up to an Israeli jeep and it and herself up I would believe the press would make that Israel's fault. I have less confidence in the press than in Bush the Second.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I saw a few intresting things between CNN and BBC tonight- First was an interview with a representative of the lebanese government (a woman no less!) who said very clearly that Hezbollah does not ask anyone when they kidnap people or attack Israel- the government does not endorse them in their attacks, she said....
Next, BBC interviewed a Lebanese military commander that explained that while it's supposed to the regualr military's role to keep Hezbollah in check, 40-60% of the standing army is Shi'a and support Hezbollah's efforts (no matter what) to destroy Israel. It ties their hands- any attempt to have the military oust Hezbollah would be a distaster.
Also, BBC showed a hilarious exchange between Bush and Blair at the G8 when neither realised they were being recorded by an open microphone... Bush:
quote:"See, the Irony of it is, they need to get Syria to tell Hezbollah to stop doing this shit, then it's over"
Blair:
quote:"Yes, my Master..."
Okay, that part I added for additional humor value.
Click on "Open mic catches Bush-Blair on Mideast" to see the video for yourself- it's gonna be a wonderous day watching the White House scramble to contain this diplomatic snafu...I wonder what Syria's official statement will be on it? It's allready being called "the shit heard 'round the world."
Lastly, I saw an interview with Madeleine Albright, wherein she noted that Iran has been the big winner amongst all the strife in the region during the past five years. She went so far as to speculate that Iran probably had a hand in the timing of the kidnappings and how it just happened to keep Iran from being the subject of the G8 summit. They were scarcely brought up, what with all the attention focused on Israel (and how they've been silent on everything lately!). Blew. Me. away. Holy shit, she really laid out quite a few points that currently-serving officials would not go near.
,,,annnd to top it all off, the Taliban (remember those guys?) Siezed two whole towns. Later this month, British forces will take over the bulk of the security in Afghanistan (with an incoming force of 3000 soldiers) and they'll get stuck re-taking the lost territory.
As to Israel's attacks on Lebanon, it's incredible that the deathtoll has been so incredibly low- Israel is choosing strategic targets Hezbollah's HQ, the main airport, etc.). 170 people have been killed in Lebanon, as of tonight, CNN reports... Compare that with the almost un-reported "more than 800 people, mostly militants, have been killed since May", in Afghanistan (according to an Associated Press tally of coalition and Afghan figures) and you'll see how skewed the spotlight is on all this.
quote:like all countries dealing with terrorists, they think bombs can change the mentality of a people), it's gone now.
The goal is not to change any mentality (again, Isreal is not playing the "win the hearts and minds" bit the U.S. is) but to redress the unworkable situation the 2000 pullout left- mainly that Hezbollah could cross the border at will, fire off rocket attacks and kidnap Israeli citizens and stockpile rockets and munitions all the while. It's now thought that Hezbollah may have as many as 14,000 rockets- a staggering figure really- far more than most countries- with some (though only a small percentage) capable of ranging 125 miles, with a payload of thousands of pounds (anywhere in Israel ia a target at that range). Israel's goal seems to be to do something about that bullshit.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Snafu? His comment pushes responsibility away from Israel (our ally) and Lebanon (whose recently reinvigorated democracy, now threatened by war, was allegedly one of the positive outcomes of the Iraq war, one that the administration has been pointing to again and again) and onto Syria. It seems like a simple enough articulation of the President's preferred outcome.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Yet...if Israel could break Hezbollah...prahaps the U.N. could (if invited by the Lebanese government) send "peacekeepers" into the country to assist in rebuilding (while keeping most unwanted foreign influence out). It'd have to be an almost all non-U.S. force though to avoid the "Israel's ally!" comparison.
It's not likely, but there might be a chance for the Lebanese government to free themselves from the shadow of Syria dominating their military.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
So, basically we have an Israeli military operation against Lebanon in response to Hezbollah actions. Hezbollah is supported by Iran and Syria and has been supported/allowed to operate by the Lebanese government for many years.
However, Hezbollah is now so powerful in the south of the Lebanon that the Lebanese government and military has no control. As a result it is unlikely that Israeli pressure on Lebanon will result in a change in Hezbollah's actions or positions.
Isreal, however, feels that it must act to underline it's own military superiority in order not to appear weak. If Isreal does appear weak then the surrounding Arab states may start to look at Isreal as a viable target once more. Given the popularity of the 'the Jews are bad' line amongst the Arab states as a method of distracting attention from domestic difficulties, Isreal has a valid concern.
Then we have the wider concerns. Hezbollah is effectivly an extension of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. We know that Iran has been aiding Shi'a militants in Iraq and clearly has desires of regional domination.
Isreal's actions will not succeed in eliminatimg Hezbollah for the same reasons that all out military offensives have not succeeded in Iraq. The enemy is embedded in the civilian population and is almost impossible to identify or target successfully. Equally, no negotiation will ever satisfy many of those in the Arab and indeed, Muslim world.
Any UN intervention would feature mainly Western troops and while that may go down well in Lebanon (in an 'at least they're not bombing us' kind of way) how long do you think it'd take the rest of the Middle East to portrey it as another Zionist/Crusader occupation? We're talking about a region whose media still report the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as fact!
We have, in short, a conumdrum...
Registered: Feb 2002
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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528
posted
Sadly there does not seem to be any way this can be settled diplomatically. It's been tried and failed. As much as it sucks, sometimes war is the only way to settle things. Israel won't stop bombarding Lebanon until Hezbollah stops shelling Israel. I don't think either side is going to back down until one or both sides are destroyed.
-------------------- Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I cannot accept. And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
This conflict started the moment Ishmael made fun of Isaac and got kicked out of the camp. The only way there will be peace in the region is when either the Arabs or the Israelis are eliminated. Forever.
Muslims are never going to see Israel or the U.S. as anything but infidels and mortal enemies. Islam can not co-exist with any other religion/philosophy/belief that does NOT bow to Allah and Islam. It is FUNDAMENTALLY impossible for a Muslim to adhere to Islam and NOT call all others with differing beliefs infidels and, by their own holy book, worthy only of death.
How can ANYONE possibly believe that you are going to be able to walk in and RATIONALIZE peace to a culture of war that has existed for thousands of years? The economies of the region are disasters. The lack of opportunities breed generations of angry youth. The hate-mongers use this anger to fuel their own agendas by villifying the "enemy" who is OBVIOUSLY responsible for the position these angry youth are in. This shifts the burden of economic & political responsibility from the leadership to the enemy and creates a willing army ready to die to strike a blow at the "oppressor". This game is played on both sides of the border and will continue until the next mass extinction occurs. All the talk and intellectualism on this planet will never be able to overpower the base emotional fanaticism of this region.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
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quote: Muslims are never going to see Israel or the U.S. as anything but infidels and mortal enemies. Islam can not co-exist with any other religion/philosophy/belief that does NOT bow to Allah and Islam. It is FUNDAMENTALLY impossible for a Muslim to adhere to Islam and NOT call all others with differing beliefs infidels and, by their own holy book, worthy only of death.
Actually, the Qu'ran allows for Jews and Christians to be allowed to exist within an Islamic state, albiet as distinctly second class citizens. In the years after the initial Muslim conquest of North Africa, the Middle eastern provinces of the Byzantine Empire and Spain, the authorities (inextricable from Islam itself as they were) were remarkable tolerant. In fact it appears that much of the Jewish population in the Byzantine territories welcomed the Muslims as they were viewed as more tolerant than the Byzantine Christian authorities.
However, there are many other sections of the Qu'ran which can be and, with increasing frequency, are interpreted in the good old-fashioned 'kill the infidel' way. And you are entirely correct that the long standing hatreds in the region entirely preclude any kind of permanent, negotiated compromise settlement. The hatreds and the facts, half-truths, lies and distorted interpretations they are based on are far too deep seated, particularly in the Arab world.
Personally, I feel that Isreal, while by no means perfect, is by far the better option.
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
So, we are back to the fact that religious zealots, of any type, are asswipes.
It is too bad that this religious intolerance is done by a reasonably small minority, although it is growing. Most people, it seems, would rather just live their lives as comfortably as possible without all the stupidity of my ideology is better than yours. Since Mohammed claims to be Jesus' half-brother, or at least another prophet of the same God, and the Jewish people only really disagree with Christians in what the purpose of Jesus was, it all boils down to being the same God.
Goofed up crap.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
1.) I think everyone clamoring for or fearing Ultimate Old Tyme Religious Apocalypse is overlooking the powerful political forces at play here. Which is to say that the causes are multifaceted (a good thing I think, ultimately, because weird, thorny, complex problems may be harder to completely solve, but they provide lots of opportunities for potential and partial solutions.)
2.) I guess I don't have a two, except: The theological distinctions are rather more involved than that, Ritten, and the similarities only make the distinctions more distinctive, at least from the inside.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528
posted
Has anyone considered the possibility that the human race is in fact nothing more than Gods little experiment? Something he created out of idle curiousity, that he can influence and change at a whim. Whether that whim will bring good or bad is really up to him.
I bet you he's done it a thousand times. Creating little worlds all over the place with the beginnings of life and watching them grow. Making changes any way he wants. If he is the supreme eternal being then he's probably got a LOT of time on his hands...
-------------------- Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I cannot accept. And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
posted
Da_bang, yes, but that is another discussion. Anyone that believes that God is all powerful, then refuse to believe that there maybe other (sentient) life elsewhere is a moron. But the bible doesn't say it. So, the religous people will limit God's power saying it isn't so, then say God works in mystrious ways and we don't know the greater plan. Stupidity if you ask me, so don't.
Sol, I agree that they make them out to be more involved, but I disagree that they have to be.
The political problems are, in that area, usually, very related to the religions in the area. Hamas is the gov't of Palestine, and their leanings are for the total destruction of Israel, which they refuse to recognize as being there. ((How do you destroy something that you do not believe exists?)) The political face, as well as the religious leanings, of all parties involved need to change, and to try to put a separation between the two is a folly.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
You simply can NOT rationalize with irrational people on ANY issue.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
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