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Author Topic: Death Penalty
Malnurtured Snay
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Well, why the hell not?

Death penalty -- good, bad? Why or why not?

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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush


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Tom Selleck in Mr. Baseball
astronauts gotta get paid
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NO NEW TEXANS?

Well, with him, you'd sure get alot more.

"No guns, but the chair is good."

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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.

Vote Communist Party of America 2000.


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Malnurtured Snay
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Personally, I don't think the chair is a very effective deterant to crime, so lets be rid of it. (The "chair" meaning death penalty, got it?)

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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Again, you demonstrate your ignorance of the facts. "'Tis better to say nothing and have people think you a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Wise words. You might wish to heed them.

Crime is consistantly lower in places where the death penalty is enforced.

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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"


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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
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Yeah, I'd rather pay several thousand dollars a year to house a person that has killed repeatedly then to have him killed and maybe use that money to pay for new books at my sons school.

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Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...


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First of Two
Better than you
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The Death Penalty may or may not be an effective deterrent, I've seen studies that suggest both, so my answer on that is still up in the air.

However... the rate of recidivism (that is, people who go on to commit other crimes after being released from jail) is roughly 80%.
but...
The rate of recidivism after a visit to 'the chair' is, Wes Craven movies aside, exactly 0%.

'The chair' is a complete and utter guarantee that the person who has committed the crimes for which he was sentenced will NEVER do anything to harm others EVER again. As such it is COMPLETELY effective.

HOWEVER!
I have some disagreement as to the ways in which the state-run death penalty is carried out, the crimes for which one is slain, and such, and the way in which it is determined who shall die and who shall live, for committing similar crimes. As these issues stand, I do have some disagreement with the death penalty. However, someone whose guilt is completely certain should by all means 'fry.'

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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And the recidivism rate for life with no parole?

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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One, it's still possible to commit crimes while in prison. Wouldn't want some petty thug that's in for six months and could be socially redeemable killed by the con with nothing to loose.

Two, how many people who get sentenced to life without parole actually get that?

Three, what's the point of keeping them alive? By killing someone, by, say, dragging them behind a truck, for an example, they've forfeited their rights, and therefore that should not be a consideration. The question is what's best for the rest of society. So we have the choice of funding someone's food, medicine, and education for four or five decades, or we can fund a couple megawatts of power. Tough choice.

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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"


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Constellation of One
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I, too, have some serious issues with the way the capital punishment system in the USA is run. I don't believe it is equally and justly enforced. That being said, there are some crimes which seemingly beg for the death penalty, like serial killings. There seems no other punishment which fits the crime. Well, unless we decide to abolish our prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

As to it being a deterrent to future crime, let's see... If he's dead, he won't commit any more crimes! Simple! Plus, if we dragged Old Sparky out from the storage bin and actually showed the dregs of society what an elecrocution looks like, I suspect things might be a tad different.

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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.


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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
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Omega: Well, I've heard some things that say (at least in some cases, I guess) it costs more to fund the inmate's appeals process against being executed than it does to just keep them in jail for the rest of their lives. I haven't seen real figures, so I don't know if it's true, but it might be something to consider...

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"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars


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Shik
There's a million things I haven't done, but just you wait
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What I love are the people who try to keep a con from being put down even though the con himself ASKS or WANTS to be executed.

"Megawatts of power"..gives me an idea. Hook up a shitload of exercise bikes to generators. Make the cons ride them.

Remember when "prisoner" meant "free slave labor?"

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"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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I'd probably be in favor of the death penalty in certain circumstances if you could assure me that human courts are infallible.

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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.


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Malnurtured Snay
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Omega,

I'd reply with an ad-homenium (however the fuck you spell it), but I'm too mature for that. You don't like my opinions? Tough fucking luck. You wanna blast me for 'em, be my fucking guest. 'Cuz guess what? The death penalty is NOT a deterent, and it costs a HELL of a lot more then keeping someone in jail for life. Not to mention that the "Texecutioner" and his brother in Florida like to put innocents to death.

Now, read on and I shall demonstrate, you of Omegainsm.

Let me start off by saying that:

EXECUTION IS NOT A REAL SOLUTION, WE CAN DO BETTER!

Yes, we fucking can.

Herrara v Collins: US Supreme Court ruled that it is Constitutional to execute an innocent person if they have been convicted in a fair trial. This means: if you're arrested for a murder, and executed, and then new evidence shows up proving you DIDN'T do it: guess what? Your murder was still legal.

We'll use Florida as an example for this one. It costs 6 million to use the death penalty (appeals and all), but only 600,000 dollars to incarcirate them for life. Geeee, it only costs TEN times as much to kill them. Hmmm ...

82% of all persons executed since 1977 were convicted of killing a white person, despite the fact that over 50% of all violent crimes victims are of color. Hmmm, anyone see racism here? We're more willing to kill someone for killing a white then killing a black, or an Asian, or so on.

Even death penalty proponents now concede that executions DO NOT deter others from committing murder. Matter o' fact, murders committed by people hoping to be caught and executed are on the increase.

Politicians claim to be tough on crime by supporting the death penalty. Are they aware that 94$ of all CJ dollars are spent AFTER the crime and not on prevention?

Public surveys show that support for the death penalty DROPS below 50% when offered the possibility of life without parole for 25 years plus restitution to the victim's family.

In Texas, David Lynn Carpenter was sentenced to death after a trial convicting him for the murder of a Dallas woman, despite the fact that DNA TESTS proved the physical descriptiopn of the murderer is NOT DAVID!

More on Texas:

-has executed more than 17 people this year alone

-most famous, the murder of Odell Barnes:

a) journalists investigating the case found evidence suggesting Barnes was not guilty of said murder ...

b) the blood-preservative expert who tested the victim's blood against blood found on Odell's clothes said that the blood "could only have appeared there by being planted or accidently spilled."

c) even Police Detective Bill Pursley agrees that "there were parts of the crime scene that if you read the books today, you could look back and say, 'boy, did we do that wrong.'

d) Odell was murdered by the State of Texas and Governor George W. Bush on March 1st.

Are you aware that, in the ENTIRE world, 85% of executions took place in: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo ... and the United States of America ...

Guess what? For all our condemnation of human rights abuses, we're grouped right in with them. And we even EXCEL by taking the #1 position of "known executions of child offenders (prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime)"

Florida LEADS THE NATION, in # of people sentenced to death ... then RELEASED after being found INNOCENT or having recieved an unfair trial (Texas is tied for 3rd with Oklahoma in this category)

Jeb Bush's solution? Support legislation limiting the death row appeals ... execute them within 5 years ...

On average, a wrongly-convicted (read: innocent) prisoner is on death row 7 years before new evidence comes to light to free them.

Hmmmm.

Me thinks Jeb wants to kill the innocent men before they get freed and make his record look bad.

And Omega? Why don't you open your mouth and ... well, I'm sure you know what I'm going to say ...

Texas/Florida Executions
CitizensUnitedAgainstDeathPenalty


------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Tim:

Who has to get paid for an appeal to take place? The Judge, stenographer, couple lawyers. Why should that cost anything unusual?

Sol:

Well, we don't execute people unless we're as sure as humanly possible that they did commit the crime. DNA and all that.

JK:

"I'd reply with an ad-homenium, but I'm too mature for that."

Could have fooled me...

"You don't like my opinions? Tough fucking luck."

What makes you think I give a darn about your opinions? I just don't like you spreading misinformation. Your opinion is that execution is not a deterent. The fact is that it is. Therefore, your opinion is wrong. Don't like it? Tough luck.

"Not to mention that the "Texecutioner" and his brother in Florida like to put innocents to death."

Name an example. You're being spoon-fed again. The liberals and the media are trying to make you think exactly that, without giving ONE instance where it wasn't unequivocably prooven that someone put to death under the Bush administration was guilty. Don't you realize you're being manipulated?

"This means: if you're arrested for a murder, and executed, and then new evidence shows up proving you DIDN'T do it: guess what? Your murder was still legal."

Makes sense to me.
A: it ain't murder if it's legal. Get over it.
B: name a time in, oh, the last thirty years where someone has been executed for a crime that they were later prooven not to have commited.

"It costs 6 million to use the death penalty (appeals and all), but only 600,000 dollars to incarcirate them for life."

I believe I'll ask for a source for that.

"82% of all persons executed since 1977 were convicted of killing a white person, despite the fact that over 50% of all violent crimes victims are of color."

Violent crimes and murder are completely seperate categories. Irrelevant statistics. How many MURDER VICTIMS are white? Seems kinda odd that 82% of executed murderers killed a white person, when white people make up 85% of the population. Amazingly close, wouldn't you say? Although you might want to look up that book "More Guns, Less Crime". It had something about that, as I recall. Or maybe it was "Hating Whitey, and Other Progressive Causes"... Oh, check them both out. They're both good.

"Even death penalty proponents now concede that executions DO NOT deter others from committing murder. Matter o' fact, murders committed by people hoping to be caught and executed are on the increase."

Source? Regardless of your source, how do you explain that there are significantly fewer murders in states with the death penalty? Ten to one you can't.

"Are they aware that 94$ of all CJ dollars are spent AFTER the crime and not on prevention?"

Of course. How would you suggest that a police officer prevent someone from breaking into my home when they're only called after he's in? Prevention is on my end. Insert gun plug here.

"Public surveys show that support for the death penalty DROPS below 50% when offered the possibility of life without parole for 25 years plus restitution to the victim's family."

I'd like to see those surveys. It wouldn't surprise me to know that they're the same ones that showed Clinton winning by twenty points in '96...

"In Texas, David Lynn Carpenter was sentenced to death after a trial convicting him for the murder of a Dallas woman, despite the fact that DNA TESTS proved the physical descriptiopn of the murderer is NOT DAVID!"

This says nothing. When was this? Was he actually executed? Released on appeal? That last phrase didn't make all that much sense, but I'll take a stab at it anyway. DNA doesn't tell you the physical description. That's not how it works. You match the DNA itself.

"[Texas] has executed more than 17 people this year [a]lone"

Your point being?

"d) Odell was murdered by the State of Texas and Governor George W. Bush on March 1st."

Uh, no. Again, it isn't murder if it's legal.
Under any circumstances, how can you blame that on Bush? It's not like he has the authority to stop an execution.

"Are you aware that, in the ENTIRE world, 85% of executions took place in: China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Democratic Republic of the Congo ... and the United States of America ..."

This tells us nothing. For all we know, the majority of those 85% took place in those other countries, and we got 5%. This also makes the base assumption that execution is a bad idea. Another book you might want to look up is called "How to Lie with Statistics". Might help you be more discerning.

"Guess what? For all our condemnation of human rights abuses, we're grouped right in with them."

Again, you're making an unwarranted assumption.

"Florida LEADS THE NATION, in # of people sentenced to death ... then RELEASED after being found INNOCENT or having recieved an unfair trial (Texas is tied for 3rd with Oklahoma in this category)"

Good. That means the appeals process works.

"Jeb Bush's solution? Support legislation limiting the death row appeals ... execute them within 5 years ..."

Now that doesn't sound like a very good idea on the face of it. Unless, of course, they get the same number of appeals.

*reads site*

I thought I heard the sound of copy and paste...

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"


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First of Two
Better than you
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We should expand the death penalty, enforce it more fairly, require DNA testing.

I seriously doubt the validity of the claim that a man was executed after DNA evidence proved him innocent. That tends to happen on Television, which we know is an unreal domain. Probably some essential facts or legal wrangling was left out, much as it has ben in the recently sensationalized Texas executions.

The funny thing is, people who are against the death penalty tend to be just as vehement as the 'right-to-lifers...' but are almost always opposed on that issue. (That is, they tend to be pro-abortion.)

Weird.
I guess it only matters WHEN you kill them.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
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