If someone steals from me (people have, BTW), either my insurance'll cover it or I'll have to pay out of pocket to replace it. Sure, I wouldn't wind smashing the punk's face repeatedly into a brick wall ... but that was when it first happened. I'd just as soon let the cops deal with it now.
If someone breaks my arm, it'll heal.
If someone beats me to death ... well, you know what? I don't think I'll much give a damn, because I'd be dead, and everyone knows the dead want nothing.
"Judge not lest you be yourself judged."
Is that the quote?
To be bluntly honest, I'd prefer some sort of rehabilitation system.
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 02, 2000).]
posted
Er ... aren't there usually TWELVE people on a jury? Or do you guys do things differently in the south?
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
But that refers to people, not actions. It's the difference between saying "What you did was wrong," and, "You're going to Hell for what you did."
------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
posted
Omega: Numbers do not tell you what other factors might be influencing crime rate, and I mentioned the same the The Tom did, that countries with lower crime rates have no death penalty. What about those numbers, huh?
"The simple answer is that it's unequivocably better for society as a whole for some people to be put to death. I don't think I could personally be asked to call where the line is, but there are cases..."
You can't really draw the line where a cell becomes human life, either, yet you support life on one side and death on the other. The problem is, the majority of people on death row are minorities and/or poor. Do they deserved to die more than rich whites? There is no way in hell that the death penalty can be executed fairly, because people aren't perfect. Frankly, Omega, Christians supporting death is hypocritical, period (heck, even fundies at my old church are against DP). There's no way you can justify it.
'Course, I also think the death penalty is more humane because prison is a fate worse than death.
------------------ "The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." --Albert Eistein
I agree on that. I would certainly prefer to be put to death rather than live the next 80 or so years of my life in jail.
Which is why a jail term is such a better sentence.
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
"countries with lower crime rates have no death penalty."
True, but I'm sure there are fewer murders in Uganda than there are in Britain (did I spell that right this time? ). It could easily be due to other factors. If you want real comparison, go state by state WITHIN the US.
"You can't really draw the line where a cell becomes human life, either"
I can for myself. I can use clinical definitions to proove another line. You're not compairing like values. There's a difference between "when is it alive" and "when does it deserve death". One's a moral judgement. The other's clinical and scientific.
"The problem is, the majority of people on death row are minorities and/or poor. Do they deserved to die more than rich whites?"
Ah, and race comes up again. To answer: Yes, they do. Because they commited crimes that a jury decided were worthy of death. Whereas the "rich whites" didn't. Simple as that.
You are making good points about the morality of it, though. Maybe enough to change my mind. Again.
------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
posted
In other words: the rich whites could afford better lawyers than the ones the minorities could not.
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
quote:Ah, and race comes up again. To answer: Yes, they do. Because they commited crimes that a jury decided were worthy of death. Whereas the "rich whites" didn't. Simple as that.
Actually, this is one of the more loopy things I've ever read from you. You should know quite well that there is more than enough minority discrimination in the justice system. I'm not going to argue any race things, because I'm feeling quite apathetic, but to believe that the Jury system allows fair and equal treatment to anyone, regardless of race, religion and perhaps most importantly, economic status, is absurd, and downright ignorant.
posted
"Ah, and race comes up again. To answer: Yes, they do. Because they commited crimes that a jury decided were worthy of death. Whereas the 'rich whites' didn't. Simple as that."
Er, can someone please hit me on the head? I can't believe I just read that. I suppose you believe O.J. Simpson was innocent, too?
"One's a moral judgement. The other's clinical and scientific."
The problem is, do you think that anyone, be it 12 or 20 or 30 jurors, should have the power to decide if someone should die?
------------------ "The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." --Albert Eistein
posted
Yes, justice has a blind eye when it comes to race and class in America, always has and always will.
wait a second...
LOL!! LOL!!
There, I feel better...now back to that bridge I own in Brooklyn.
------------------ Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit? ~C. Montgomery Burns
"So you propose a society where everyone is left blind and toothless?"
"Not everyone. Just the bad guys".
I can see both points, but I'm incapable of arguing due to something Jeff said, over my "11 people in a jury" mistake.
"Or do you guys do things differently in the south?"
South? SOUTH? As in "the southern part of the US?" As in, you think I'm a Southern US-er?
*explodes*
------------------ "If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
I'm working on the assumption that Omega's in the south (gee, I wonder why), and since he didn't pick up on the 12-juror thing, I figured things were done a bit different "down there" ...
But, no, Liam, I don't think you're a Southerner ... well, I'm sure to the Scots you're a Southerner, being in England and all.
How many people do you have in a jury in England, anyway?
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Not a bad guess. Even though it's stereotyping. Which is something I thought liberals in general claimed to abhor.
Tennessee.
Ziyal:
I find you to be the only one trying to make legitimate points in this argument. Therefore, after the above, I shall address only you in this post.
Of course, the first half of your post was kinda pointless. Why can no one seem to accept the simple fact that more black people commit crimes? Again, to any reader: check out "Hating Whitey, and Other Progressive Causes".
And I couldn't care less about OJ. Not that it mattered whether he did it or not, since there was at least one woman on that jury that would have voted "not guilty" simply because he was black. Now tell me that the justice system is biased towards whites.
Anyway, back to subject: as I say, you make a good point. What group of humans has the right to determine that another life is unsalvagable? I feel like there's an answer, but I can't put my finger on it. Thus, as of now, I am undecided on the issue.
Good job, Ziyal. The others could learn a lot from you.
------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Was it stereotyping? Sorta, except you have to realize I've lived my whole life in the Northeastern U.S., and am very well aware that we have 12-person juries up here (having served on one).
Now, what other options does that leave? South and west, really. And as you're such a big "Dubya" supporter, I actually pegged you as a Texan. But, hey, I got the south part correct ...
Now, true, again, the "11-member jury" was a misstatement on yours and Liam's part, but you can understand why I would draw the conclusion that you didn't live in the Northeastern United States.
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Lerlene! Come an' git mah shotgun fo' me. Thar's some so't of liberal out thar prowlin', an' ah's gonna make him unnerstan' th' second ammendment! Fry mah hide!
). It could easily be due to other factors. If you want real comparison, go state by state WITHIN the US.
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