posted
Not to upset anyone who's currently got a really nifty view from their soapbox, but...
Don't you think that a society that solves it's problems by killing people has something fundamentally wrong at it's heart?
------------------ "If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
Its really sad that YOU'RE the one spreading misinformation about the death penalty. I mean, all the people murdered in Texas, you'd think there'd be no crime! Instead, everyone needs to pack a gun ...
Would someone kindly explain to me how murder is not a violent crime?
People innocent and executed?
Roy Stewart Jesse Tafero Willie Darden David Spence Odell Barnes, jr Ellis Felker Walter Blair Roger Coleman Joseph O'Dell Leonel Herrera Robert Nelson Drew Barry Fairchild Jesse Jacobs (my fav -- someone else was later convicted for the EXACT SAME CRIME! Too late for Jesse, he was already murdered by the state!)
You can find out more information about these innocent men executed by their government HERE
Enough for you, Omega?
The abotion issue is completely different. The Democratic stance is that it is a matter of PRIVACY, and the CHOICE of the woman in question, and only the woman in question.
------------------ Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS! *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
posted
"I mean, all the people murdered in Texas..."
You're teachers must not have liked you all that much. You don't listen very well. That might explain your apparent incapacity to use a dictionary to look up "murder".
"Would someone kindly explain to me how murder is not a violent crime?"
Again, you're not paying attention. To spell it out: IINM, murder is not classified under violent crimes, instead getting it's own category. Therefore, any statistics relating to violent crime are irrelevant in a discussion about murder. Clear enough?
"The abotion issue is completely different. The Democratic stance is that it is a matter of PRIVACY, and the CHOICE of the woman in question, and only the woman in question."
No, it's not. It's the state-sanctioned end of a human life, same as execution. With the exception that abortion is ALWAYS the end of an innocent life. If you'd like me to proove that, after about six weeks, the child is clinically alive, that can be arranged.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
posted
My teachers like me very much. That's because I'm a very charming individual, with a warm smile and bright blue eyes ... I'm irresistable =)
See, another reason they like me, is that I question authority. They told me that killing an innocent man if he had been convicted of a crime he didn't do was legal, and I said, the HELL IT IS.
Murder is illegal killing. If you are innocent and executed for the crime you have committed, you are being murdered. Yes, the Supreme Court ruled that those were legal ... but we're talking about killing innocent men. Sorry, that is murder. Whenever an innocent man is killed for a crime he did NOT commit, he has been murdered.
On abortion, briefly: sorry, Omega. The Republican point of view is that abortion is murder. The Democratic point of view is that it is a woman's choice (and only a woman's choice).
Are you saying a woman can't be trusted with a choice?
------------------ Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS! *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
posted
Democrats have always been masters of changing the subject. Tell me: just what does that mean, "a matter of choice"? WHAT choice? I'm laying twenty to one odds you can't answer. You're just parroting. Try thinking for yourself sometime. It's quite refreshing.
The child is alive. Beyond around six weeks, that's unequivocable, and you can make a darn good argument before that. The QUESTION is whether a woman has a right to kill a living child.
The answer is "no".
Care to make an argument as to why the child doesn't have a right to live, like any other innocent human being?
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
posted
Heh. even that saite doesn't make the clame that all those people on that list were certainly innocent. Just that innocence was considered by some to be possible.
That's not much of a statement. One could arge that it's possible that John Wilkes Booth was under the influence of spacemen during the Lincoln assassination, too, but that doesn't make it so.
Or another example.. since Mumia Abu Jamal is incarcerated close to hear, and I'm constantly hearing about his case from various local and national groups, I studied the case from both angles.
I was almost convinced of the case for innocence... until I checked into some of the facts. Every option put out so far is based on unreliable dats, people 'changing their minds' years after testifying, innacurate interpretations of evidence, and clear desperation.
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
It is not for me an individual (or you, an individual), to decide for a woman what is (or is not) a *private* matter involving ... well, herself. She'll have to live with her actions for the rest of her life ... and frankly, perhaps she'll choose to have the baby. We can give her the info on aborting and keeping the child, but in the end, there can be only one ...
An attempt at humor =)
In the end, the choice is hers alone. Now, myself, I feel that a woman should have the option of an abortion for the first three months, then she wouldn't be able to (this is an extra 6 weeks atop of what you want).
I can't make the argument that a child doesn't have a right to exist. Why not? Well, it doesn't involve me, and I've no right (unlike Republicans) to go around telling people how to live their lives.
And Omega, I find it amusing that you accuse me of "spooing" from liberals. I've never heard you say anything but the Republican party line ... chapter and verse.
You defend the death penalty, but decry abortion.
I decry the death penalty, and my moral stand on abortion is a private one, while I respect the woman's right to privacy.
Regarding Mumia Abu Jamal: I haven't followed the case, and I've made no assertions of his innocence.
"Cases where a person has been executed despite evidence of innocence (weight of the evidence is subject to dispute} " Joseph O'Dell (I mean, come on, the sperm in the victim's body wasn't even HIS! Also, no evidence matched his personal effects, and *someone else confessed*! The FBI themselves addmitted the testing was flawed.
Leonel Herrera - "presented affidavits and positive polygraph results from a variety of witnesses, including an eyewitness to the murder and a former Texas state judge, both of whom stated that someone else committed the crime. The supreme court ruled that innocence alone does not justify a federal hearing on this evidence now was federal habeas relief available for *mere* innocence."
Barry Fairchild - Sentenced to death for kidnap, rape, and shooting murder of Marjorie Mason. Conviction based on videotaped "confession" ... blood, hair, semen didn't link to Fairchild. 13 other black men questioned by Pulaski County police were subjected to extreme physical and mental torture. Michael Johnson states "he heard Fairchild's screams and noises similar to beating using a baseball bat."
In another category, Jess Jacobs was *convicted* and *sentenced* to death ... then the state convicted another man for the same crime ... and *left him on death row!*
------------------ Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS! *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 01, 2000).]
posted
"It is not for me an individual (or you, an individual), to decide for a woman what is (or is not) a PRIVATE matter involving ... well, herself."
So it's a private matter when one person decides to kill another person? When did this happen?
"I've never heard you say anything but the Republican party line ... chapter and verse."
But I'm informed about it. I know what I'm talking about. You don't. I come to conclusions independently. You copy/paste straight from liberal websites, without a shred of thought. A monkey could do that.
"You defend the death penalty, but decry abortion."
And you do the exact opposite. I defend the lives of innocent children. You defend the lives of vicious criminals. I claim that a serial murderer has no right to live, by virtue of violating the rights of others. You claim that a blameless child has no right to live, by virtue of... what? Being inside it's mother?
What's wrong with this picture?
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
posted
JK: REALLY? You're SAYING THAT abortion ARE a personal CHOICE, and that THE death penalty is NOT GOOD? AND YOU wrote SOMETHING about SOME GUY's SPERM OR something. I DIDN'T READ much OF IT. I DON'T like shouting, or RANDOM capitalization OF WORDS.
"It is not for me an individual (or you, an individual), to decide for a woman what is (or is not) a PRIVATE matter involving ...well, herself."
What about the kid? If your mother decided to shoot your brains out today, would that be okay, because it's "a private matter involving herself"? Or is your arguement that, since the child is still connected to its mother, it's still part of the mother? If that's the case, what happens if one member of a set of conjoined twins decides to off its other half because it's tired of living that way and doesn't want to wait around to be surgically separated? I mean, that's what an abortion is. Some mother is so fucking selfish that she'd kill her own child, rather than go through a few months of discomfort.
Oh, BTW, I don't think you can make the arguement that abortion is legal because the child isn't a life unto itself. From what I understand, if someone hits a pregnant woman in the abdomen and causes a miscarriage, they are charged, not w/ simply injuring the mother, but w/ the killing of the child. So, legally, the child is considered a separate person. Therefore, abortion is state-sanctioned infanticide.
------------------ "Yeah...apparently Sizer is very hard to say, so they replace it with 'Is Mr. Caeser home?' Sometimes I'll say that no, he has, in fact, passed away. 'My apologies.' 'Oh, that's ok, I'm over it. Brutus is still a wreck though.' Then I hang up." -Simon Sizer on telemarketers, 1-Nov-2000
posted
Ok, let me try and get my position through once more:
I make no moral judgements against the mother, it is up to her, and God'll judge her later. Am I condoning it? No. I'm staying out of it.
Am I personally in favor of abortion? No. Am I going to get involved? Unless I'm the potential father, its none of my business. And for those of you against abortion, have YOU ever gotten involved? How many days have you gone to abortion centers and protested? Because if you haven't, you've really got no place to judge me.
Omega: I think you're jealous 'cuz I have websites and reputible magazines to quote from, and you pull numbers out of your quite considerable ass. You may be well informed, but only on the Republican slant, and you ONLY speak the party line, I haven't seen you say anything that goes against the Party Line, so I wouln't speak about others doing the same. Again, you're being rather hipocritical.
------------------ Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS! *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
quote:JeffKardde It costs 6 million to use the death penalty (appeals and all), but only 600,000 dollars to incarcirate them for life.
Omega: I believe I'll ask for a source for that.
While I'm not sure about the actual numbers, in my senior American Government class we were discussing the pros and cons of the death penalty. It's a fact that the death penalty is much more expensive than life in prison.
This is really a tough subject, you can't say anything without pissing someone off. I can't even make up my own mind.
I recommend watching A Time to Kill. Basically a black man (Samuel L Jackson) kills two white rednecks who raped his 10-year old daughter then tried to kill her. But the thing is, he does it in a court house in front of a bunch cops, innocent bystanders, and the media. The point is, should be given the death penatly for killing the men that raped and nearly killed his daughter?
I agree with Jeff, executing an innocent person is murder and wrong. However, it's not like he was found innocent but killed anyway.
------------------ Calvin: "Isn't that weird?? If computers can think, what will people be better at than machines?" Hobbes: "Irrational behavior." This post is sponsored in part by the Federation Starship Datalink
I'm sorry. I can't believe what an idiot I am. Your way is much better than mine. Please tell me what I should do to be more like you? Please help me save myself
------------------ Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS! *** Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
posted
The last words of a man with a losing argument. I'm not saying Omega's doing any better, but this is like the first thing they teach you during debates. Not that I would know from any nerdling club or anything. I play hockey, and I'm a man. Rrr.
I think this whole argument is funny, for a few simple reasons.
JeffK: Irrational, emotional, and stubborn, with many contradicting opinions with himself.
Omega: Peudo-Logical, repetitive, and stubborn, repetitive, deaf, repetitive and repetitive.
It's like two stones fighting. Or glasses of water. With no wind, of course.
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