quote:

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So I ask: how can you, in good consience, support a party that purposefully frightens old people to get votes?

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You mean, like the Republicans lie to the public about the likelyness of a nuclear missile attack to justify SDI?

Like the NRA lies to the public to get support for the Republican Party's pro-gun anything?

Anyway, I'm going to echo Jay. Liar, liar, pants on fire.

quote:

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Accordingly, a reimbursement of $364,000 was transferred to the OASI Trust Fund in fiscal year 2000, as required by section 228 of the Social Security Act.

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Gee. A Social Security trustfund.

Let's see ... there are no Republican politicians I've seen who seem so confident in what Omega says to actually come out and say, "hey, there are no trust funds." Why? Well, perhaps because there are trust funds. Couple that with the link Jay provided (which rather clearly shows that there are trust funds in existance), and it rather makes Omega boy out to be ...

A distorter of truth.

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: MeGotBeer ]

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: MeGotBeer ]

Jay's link says nothing about either Social Security OR Medicare, so it is clearly irrelevant to the discussion, which is about the existence or nonexistence of Social Security and Medicare trust funds, the existence of which you continue to fail to demonstrate.

And those funds whose existence you HAVE demonstrated... have you any evidence to show that THEY are being 'raided,' or are you just trying yet another smokescreen?

What you have done here is essentially equivalent to saying "Aliens have invaded Haiti!" And then showing us blurry pictures of some locale in Jamaica, with something that may or may not be a saucer, as your 'proof.'

And speaking of LIES about Pro-Gun stuff... I hear that King's College in the UK has released a study that shows that handgun crime is up 40% in the three years since the total handgun ban. I'm uncertain of my siurce, however. Can any of our friends across the pond confirm this?

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]

quote:

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Accordingly, a reimbursement of $364,000 was transferred to the OASI Trust Fund in fiscal year 2000, as required by section 228 of the Social Security Act.

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Right. Got to post this again, because someone didn't read it. The OASI Trust Fund ... required by the Social Security Act. Sounds like a Social Security Trustfund to me. And you guys haven't made your case either: again, if it's not happening, why didn't Kit Bond just say so? Hmmm. Gee. I wonder why.

Unwarranted assumption.

again, if it's not happening, why didn't Kit Bond just say so?

Well, that's a totally different topic, now isn't it?

The specific lies I refer to from the NRA are: when was the last time you heard a Democratic politician speaking about banning guns? Right, you haven't. Unless you speak to the NRA.

The NRA has never claimed such a thing to have happened, to the best of my extensive knowledge. They have simply claimed that Democrat politicans want to restrict or remove my God-given right to defend myself by force. They are correct in saying this.

quote:

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So once again, you have nothing, and once again, I must ask how you can justify supporting people who lie for the express purpose of frightening people in order to get votes.

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Prove it.

There's clearly a Social Security trust-fund, as evidenced by my above quote.

And clearly, if there weren't either a Social Security or Medicare trust, Senator Kit Bond would have said so.

To prove yourself correct, all you've really done is call me an idiot and a few other ad-hominems. That's not good debating, and any idiot on a high-school debate team could tell you the same.

That was very eloquent of you.

Beh�vs en duktig avsugning d�r

quote:

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When have you heard a Democratic politician speaking about banning guns? Right, you haven't.

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Phyllis Schlafly, (sp?) 1986. I heard her. And she's not the only one I could dig up. Dare me?

quote:

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Nevermind that it was a right given by men

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Wrong again.

"We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men (meaning everybody) are created equal, and are endowed by their creator (Whether some God, Brahma's Dream, Mom&Dad, or Hugo) with certain INALIENABLE rights"... blah, blah, blah.

We believe that our human rights are INHERENT, common to all reasoning beings, and (if you hold such things possible) SACRED, and not to be meddled with.

They are also interrelated. It is through our right to individual AND collective self-defense (and offense, if the need should arise) that we maintain our grasp on all the other rights, against all comers.

Indeed, it is OUR zealous insistence on these things that has saved Europe TWICE. If we hadn't cared about these things so much, it would have been far easier to leave them to the tender mercies of the Nazis or the Soviets.

quote:

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Phyllis Schlafly, (sp?) 1986. I heard her. And she's not the only one I could dig up. Dare me?

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Fifteen years ago? More recently. In particular, I heard a lot of talk about Al Gore outlawing guns if he got into office ... even though he never said a word about it, and in fact, at the Democratic Primary in '00 said he supported the right of men and women to own guns (provided they weren't criminals). Didn't stop right-wingers and the NRA from freaking out, and saying he would, tho. Those conservative Republican scum! Using scare tactics like that! Oh, wait, it's the same thing Omega's bitching about. I guess if he believes in scare tactics so much, he should denounce the NRA. Of course, all he's going to do is what he usually does: call Al a liar. ::Shrug:: It's hard to have a rational debate with Omega when all he ever does is call everybody idiots and liars.

quote:

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Wrong again.

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Oh, so now you DO believe in God?

God does not exist. Therefore, he could not have given us any rights. Agree? Disagree?

Whatever rights we have are rights that men (humans) decided everyone should have, and gave. These are the same rights that we've fought for and whatnot, but the fact does not change that a fictional deity did not supply us with them.

quote:

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If we hadn't cared about these things so much,

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I guess the Conservatives didn't care much about those things, since they were rather isolationist at the time and wanted to stay out of both World Wars, eh?

Anyway, back to topic:

Omega claims there are no medicare or social security trustfunds.

No prominent Republicans have backed up Omega's statements.

Jay has posted a link showing trust-funds which are established by the social security act. Omega calls them "irrelevent" or whatever.

Hmmm. Gee. Sorry, Ommie, think you lost this one.

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: MeGotBeer ]

More recent? Okay.

William Clay, US House of Representatives, May 8, 1993, St. Louis Post Dispatch:
"We need much stricter gun control and eventually we should bar ownership of handguns except in a few cases."

Senator Dianne Feinstein, February 5, 1995, CBS's 60 Minutes:
"If I could have gotten another 51 votes in the Senate for an outright ban, picking up everyone of them, Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in, I would have done that. But I could not do that; the votes were not there."

"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of Americans to feel safe."
U.S. Senator Diane Feinstein, quoted by AP, 11/18/93

"My bill ... establishes a 6-month grace period for the turning in of all handguns."
U.S. Representative Major Owens, Congressional Record, 11/10/93

"Gun registration is not enough." Attorney General Janet Reno, December 10,1993 (Associated Press)

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans . . . ."
William J. Clinton, USA Today, p. 2A, Mar. 11, 1993.

"The Constitution is a radical document... it is the job of the government to rein in people's rights."
William J Clinton on MTV - 1992

I shortly will introduce legislation banning the sale, manufacture or possession of handguns (with exceptions for law enforcement and licensed target clubs). . . . It is time to act. We cannot go on like this. Ban them!
Sen. John H. Chafee (R.-R.I.), In View of Handguns' Effects, There's Only One Answer: A Ban, Minneapolis Star Tribune, June 15, 1992,
(a Republican idiot, just to show I'm not biased!)

And this one, just to show he's an idiot:
Bill Clinton, March 9, 2000, Washington Post:
"I'm not at all sure that even a callous, irresponsible drug dealer with a 6-year-old in the house wouldn't put a child trigger lock on a gun."

and to show He's not...
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
Mahatma Gandhi

And one last thought, for those who think that people who want to own guns should be only in the military or the police...

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA -- ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the state."
--Heinrich Himmler.

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]

You two are really dolts. Just not very bright at times.

Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund...what the heck to you think Social Securiy is?

Root directory time.

www.ssa.gov is the online presence of "Social Security Online: The Official Website of the Social Security Administration."

I guess unless Rush adds for you, you can't add for yourself.

I for one just can't fathom how just plain dumb you two can be at times. Especially when either distorting the truth about the existance of the trust fund for Social Security or just plain believing a right wing liars ...like El Rushbo... or not following up on facts and checking out the sources before posting something as wrong as:

quote:

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THERE. IS. NO. SOCIAL. SECURITY. TRUST. FUND.
There hasn't been a social security trust fund for decades.

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Cause that is wrong. Alltoghether wrong. And either way you're and idiot, a liar or don't care to check out facts. No one on these boards should ever have to read your crap again.

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]

That's nice. When did you find a quote of Al Gore saying he was going to ban firearms? 'Cuz the NRA (and, I'm fairly certain, Omega, JeffR, and you) were all saying he was planning on doing so if he got elected.

So, since the NRA uses scare tactics to influence voting, shouldn't Omega call them "lying scum" too and refuse to become a member?

And, er, you do agree that God didn't decide what were and what were not fundemental rights, right? Therefore, the rights that we agree are fundemental were decided on by MEN. Therefore, those rights are NOT God given, and are man given. If they're not given by God, who are they given by ... ? Men. Woohoo! Yes?

[ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: MeGotBeer ]

All right. Maybe there IS some kind of trust fund associated with Social Security. Okay? Now, is there any evidence to suggest that THAT fund you've mentioned actually IS or HAS BEEN touched by anybody?

JeffK: You are falling into the exact same either-or fallacy that Omega does about the Creation of the Universe: Special Creation by God or Darwinian Evolution. You both fail to realize that the answer can still be Other.

There are not simply TWO choices for the origin of rights, there are THREE.

1: God
2: Man
3: Inherent

Choices 1 and 2 require that rights are given by some outside force: Either super-being, or some shadowy group of men. But choice three (admittedly, a difficult one for many minds to grasp, even mine) insists that humans (or any reasoning being) have rights simply by EXISTING, and they are not 'given' or 'granted.' Rights that are inherent cannot be given or taken away. They simply ARE.

This is the choice we MUST accept, if we are ever to move out among the stars, and meet other life forms, without becoming genocidal. It is the choice we HOPE that any advanced alien race we meet accepts, because if they don't, then we are TOAST.

When you do not recognize that rights are inherent, you open the door to mass murder of those who are 'different' because they don't worship your God (who would therefore not grant them your rights) or because they're not 'men' by your definition (and history shows us that there are PLENTY of ways to dehumanise human beings, much less other life forms.)

quote:

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You got a quote on that? 'Cause I don't recall the NRA or any of us claiming such a thing.

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I'll look for some quotes later. But, considering that you don't check your facts, and are a piece of lying scum, you'll understand if I don't rush it, right ...?

Rob, I understand what you're saying. But I disagree. Answer these questions:

Who decides what rights are inherent? Did God defeat the British during the Revolutionary Way?

The answers are, a) Human Beings and b) No, we did with a lot of help from the French.