I question Starfleet�s strategy during the war with the Dominion.
When the Galaxy Class was designed with a saucer section that could separate, the logic was explained that most of the saucer section was devoted to living quarters, extra science labs, recreation facilities (holodecks and other exercise areas), hydroponics labs, arboretum, and room for families to live. And in a battle, the saucer could be left behind somewhere for the stardrive section to go into battle.
In the Dominion war it seemed all the starships stopped at one base or another, joined into fleets and we saw that all the Galaxy Class vessels went to war with their saucers. In Best of Both Worlds pt 1 Riker rejects the idea of saucer separation to fight the Borg because they might need the energy from the saucer section�s impulse engines- I find this argument a bit odd as the warp reactor can produce how many thousand fold the energy that the saucer could provide? And if one subtracts the power that needs to be used to shield the entire ship, to that of what it would take to shield just the drive section, combined with the power the saucer draws for life support and all the other systems- I don�t feel it�s a plus to have it along, that and without it the ship�s mass is less which is a plus, and it�s profile is greatly reduced�
So, if captains seem to want to take a saucer into battle, I ponder it would just be best to have a secondary saucer designed for this� a battlefield saucer. When war is declared, ships set course for the nearest starbase and instruct the families and extra personnel to the saucer, all required crew go to the stardrive/battlebridge. When they get to the starbase the saucers are switched out� the new one would have no quarters, only extra fusion generators, torpedo launchers, phasers emitters, and fighter bays. The Galaxy Class Saucer is big enough to house two Defiant Class vessels (though it would be very awkward to refit an older saucer for this and a new design would be better) �an old one could be refit with bays to hold many Peregrine Class however. It could be made into a great warship and carrier. The Defiant and Peregrine can certainly get to the battlefield on their own without the need for a carrier, but as we saw in DS9, wars can drag out- and far from home, with few places to set in for repair. A battlefield saucer could certainly help expedite repairs on at least the smaller ships in the fleet.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
Interesting Idea, however how often would a ship in combat be able to take a detour to a starbase,
Hailing enemy vessel attacking planet: Hold there a sec, we'll be back in a couple of days
However it would seem starfleet has already applied this principle to the Nebula class with it's swappable module, and one would assume the Akira class (Come on, would Starfleet be sending out that class all the time with that many weapons? Swap that module full of torpedo launchers with one with sensors, and put it to more general use)
As far a the Galaxy class goes, the TNG manual states that the saucer is modular itself. One could argue that the combat galaxy classes we saw in DS9 either had little in the saucer (improving the weight/impulse engine ratio) or was full of repair and first aid facilities.
The Space shuttle has several possible modes of operation, (Shuttle C for cargo), it would be interesting to explore possible conversions of starships to fit more specific roles (you could argue that the lantree was an example of this, a cargo conversion of the miranda class)
I've often though that the intrepid class would make a interesting cargo vessel, add some rapid delivery system to the bottom of the secondary hull, and it could be the starfleet equivalent of the planet express ship (after painting it green).
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
But, we don't know that the Galaxies we saw in the war didn't have augmented saucers. Certainly we saw a rate of fire that I don't recall seeing on the E.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Also it's unlikely that the Galaxies in the war carried the non-combatants that the E-D did in TNG, reducing the need for saucer seperation.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Common facts skipped over when discussing this:
-Riker dissed Shelby on seperating the saucer in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part I", saying they could use the maneuverability from the impulse engines in the saucer (or at least the power from them). Indeed, the various CG versions of the Galaxy class during the war usually see them lit. They're lit again in ENT "These Are the Voyages" while the E-D is in an asteroid field; both these cases are VFX gaffes, but they're easy to rationalize.
-According to the TNG Tech Manual (whose information will become less commonly known now that the book isn't easy to find anymore) states that Galaxies typically have a significant volume of their saucers empty to allow for future expansion or modification. Layover-swappable modules are suggested, such that any given ship could be modified presumably in a matter of weeks at a suitable starbase. This is a step down, it seems, from the Nebula's module, which is doubtless just as internally pliable, or even entirely so to a good degree (though we've never seen any evidence that whole module replacement is commonly done).
-Likewise, the DS9 TM posits the existence of "Sternbach Galaxies" (sic) that left spacedock with most of their volumes empty, putting in just the basics and additional weapons - without even bothering to put labeling on their hulls. This explains the "cobra neck" ships we see in DS9, without registries and a curiously dark grey neck compared to the usual ships we see (another VFX slip up). As for what "extra weapons" means, most think that it accounts for extra phaser capacitors and torpedo casings, since there were no apparent extra phaser mounts visible on the model. However, this never stopped phasers from erupting from all sorts of wierd places on ships like Defiant or Lakota, so that's not really saying much.
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Considering how long it took to build the first few Galaxy-class ships, and the fact that a good number of them seemed to suddenly spring up in time for the war, I think that Sternbach's explanation is really the best � that they skimped on most of the saucer's facilities like extra quarters, science labs, holodecks, and so forth.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the TNG:TM somewhere say that phaser power output is proportional to the length of the linked emitters � that is, that each emitter segment can pass on its accumulated energy to the next segment in the line? That would provide a big incentive for having the whole saucer � more phaser output over a much larger area, providing greater combat strength.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think the phaser thing has been invalidated by most subsequent starship designs, which split the phaser strips up if for no other reason than to look cool (indeed, Sternbach himself has used this reason to explain phaser strips on Voyager). Perhaps it was a genuine reason behind the Galaxy design, but in other starships with similar phaser types is just doesn't seem workable.
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
quote:Originally posted by tricky: Hailing enemy vessel attacking planet: Hold there a sec, we'll be back in a couple of days
I would not recommend it for all combat situations- but with the Dominion war- or any protracted war, ships must travel from all over the Federation to the front, and many would likely have to stop by a starbase anyway to offload non-essential crew and families.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Indeed, the various CG versions of the Galaxy class during the war usually see them lit. They're lit again in ENT "These Are the Voyages" while the E-D is in an asteroid field; both these cases are VFX gaffes, but they're easy to rationalize.
Very good thinking, though the Enterprise was using the saucers impulse engines at the time Pressman came aboard- long before they got to the system to look for the Pegasus. But it's also good to ignore it and rationalize it, and assume that perhaps the saucers they used in the war were different that what we saw from the Ent-D.
I just pondered it conflicted with the first law, and the stated reason for the detachable saucer.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
You could always kick all the civvies and non-essential crew off a Galaxy, pack the living quarters with troops, medics, and other personell whose skills would be useful on a battlefield, and use the ship as a transport. I forget what the TM says the Galaxy-Class is capable of transporting, but if you've got ten folks sharing a former civillian's apartment on Deck Five, and folks in racks in the corridors, I'd imagine you could just about transport a fairly impressive relief force.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
You could turn most of the lower half of the saucer into a huge cargo complex for transporting relief, rebuilding, and war supplies. You've got those two massive doors on the underside of the saucer, might as well go with it.
You could also temporarily expand the size of the saucer's shuttle bay. Although, if I'm remembering correctly, didn't y'all decide way back when that the fighters we saw in the DS9 battle sequences were too big for the saucer's shuttle bay?
I don't know about the idea of housing one or two Defiants in the saucer. You'd have to redesign the structure of the saucer from scratch for that one, and I don't really think there'd be any incentive for letting the Defiants hitch a ride on the Galaxys.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Special Defiants that are all weapons and no warp drive? For whatever reason.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Yes, the Galaxy-class as designed for TNG would not make for a very useful fighter- or shuttle- carrier, other than for tiny craft like the Type-6 shuttle. The main shuttlebay has a huge column in the core area for turbolift shafts, support facilities, and other equipment.
Depending on the size of the Peregrines, you might be able to fit a dozen AT MOST. And runabouts? Forget it!
(Of course, the idea of customized wartime saucers or half-empty hulls with lots of extra storage space brings all this into question. I suppose it's possible they'd expand the hangar facilities... certainly the Galaxy, having the greatest internal volume, makes for the best candidate for transport service.)
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
The idea behind a Defiant dock within the saucer section would not be to make a Defiant without warp- it's not to turn the Defiant into a fighter that would require a carrier- the idea behind it is to create a means to fully repair ships Defiant and smaller, in a battlefield situation. With the Dominion war there'd be an engagement, and then afterward we'd see the Federation fleet limping along with many vessels crippled- so I think it'd be good to have a saucer designed to server a carrier role, even if it was just one or two, that could take in and repair the Defiant class, and the fighters.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Depending on the size of the Peregrines, you might be able to fit a dozen AT MOST. And runabouts? Forget it!
The Enterprise did offload three runabouts. I wish there was a little big more info on the Peregrine Class- and just what the "Fighter" is. There is the Peregrine Class, which is a courier: http://www.stguardian.to/fed/peregrine/perewall.jpg So it's larger than the "Fighter", larger than a runabout, but certainly smaller than the Defiant, designed for small cargo runs, they were also procured by the Maquis, and one of this class was stranded in the Delta Quadrant with Voyager. I'm unaware if any Peregrine Class were seen fighting in the Domion war.
Then there's the Fighter: http://www.geocities.com/stg63541/peregrine.jpg and from the window, you cans see that this is a much smaller vessel with room for just one or two people, and these craft were seen throughout the Dominion war... they are similar in form to the Peregrine Class and share the same design lineage- and a lot of people call them Peregrine- but they are so different that I do not feel that is correct, so I call them "Fighters" since that's what they call them in DS9.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The name "Peregrine" was never actually matched onscreen with any given design.
[ January 04, 2006, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: TSN ]
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
*scratches head*
Something with Tim's post is broken, but I'll be damned if I can't figure it out. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I believe that shuttlebay image with the ships overlaid was Tom's doing, as he was, for a time, collecting all sorts of information about the various ships that we've named (or, as Tim points out, nicknamed, really) Peregrine.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Nope, that one was me. We were arguing at the time as to just WHAT you could fit inside a standard GCS shuttlebay according to the blueprints, and if the starships seen in "Favor the Bold" et. al. could carry the fighters we saw to the battlefield; as it turns out, it was quite a bit.
Also, the alternate E-D from "Yesterday's Enterprise" was capable of transporting 6000 troops by design - which in my view means including barracks, logisitcal supply, and transporters/transportation to make it a viable troop carrier. Since the alternate future didn't have any significant differences in technology, and teh E-D was still the same outwardly, you can assume that in wartime a GCS could be built to similar "battleship" specs given time and resources.
The "emergency evacuation capacity" of a GCS is 15,000, which would mean lining the corridors and doubling up on rooms. Remember, Voyager once took on 200 Klingons for a brief period, and even with her expansive volume, was still doubling up on quarters. For reference, a typical aircraft carrier has less habitable space more embarked small craft or warplanes, and they support 3-5000 crew constantly!
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But weren't you the one asking. . .
Oh. Well, I can't be expected to read much past the first letter, can I? Don't look into it, but I am an important person with many interesting things to do!
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Correction to my last post about Peregrines. In TNG- Preemptive Strike Ro slips her Maquis Raider between the nacelles of the Enterprise- and it appears for be quite small, similar in size to a runabout. Data reports it to be �A vessel of some kind is attempting to penetrate our aft shields�.the vessel that penetrated our shields is of the same design to the ships used by the Maquis.� -It�s almost as if Data doesn�t recognize the class as being constructed by the UFP. The ship Ro piloted seemed small on the outside, and on the inside as well, less room than a runabout even- It seemed to have three rooms, a cockpit, middle cargo area (that was no larger than the two person cockpit, and then there was a door behind that, for an aft cabin. In DS9 � The Maquis II we see that the Maquis also have the Federation �Fighter� as it was two of them that took on the three runabouts. And then starting off Voyager the Maquis had another vessel, that looked like the vessel that Ro piloted, but the scale must have been larger for all the people that got off of it- either that or it was the clown car of Trek cause they were always coming up with new Maquis crewmembers.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I had this idea a long time ago. I think the sizes are correct. The ships could dock via the Defiant class Shuttlebay.
You may even "piggy-back" (oh forgive me an earth colloquialism) a smaller ship like the defiant using the useless captain's yacht dock.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Something with Tim's post is broken, but I'll be damned if I can't figure it out."
Evidently, whatever part of the UBB is designed to automatically turn URLs into links didn't like the fact that the URL was immediately followed by a quotation mark.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
(Sisco to USS nebula: "No you can't rename my ship USS Limpet, so shut it or I blow your bridge off!!")
Not that we see it very often, but having a ship capable of warp in combat would seem to be an advantage over an impulse only (warp-strafing). At worst, the warp engines on the Defiant act as something else you have to shoot though from the side. Now, why they bother putting ram-scoops on I'm not so sure about. Would it need to refuel that often in flight, or are ram-scoops a better/safer use of space than larger deuterium tanks?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That's an idea - Danubes have them too.
Here is a picture with possible various ways of mounting smaller support ships on larger ships for purposes of combat support and berthing/mother ship type thing. I'd prefer to have a Defiant on the upper docking thingie on a Nebbie than a giant sensor. Also a good way for smaller ships to get further afield, all fresh etc.
The holoship would make a good attack fighter mother ship.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm of the opinion that ships at least as large as the Defiant or Maquis raider would have sufficient range and endurance for it not to need piggybacking on a larger ship. I'm sure that either of them could keep their crews happy and relatively comfy for months at a time, to get to any given mission objective and back again. Wearing out your engines over the long term is hardly worth the resource expense of hard docking it to a larger ship IMO, if it can do it just as well on its own or if you can quickly modify it to do so. It's like strapping a pickup truck with a camper to the top of your RV.
Fighters, on the other hand, make perfect sense. The ones seen in DS9 can hardly be expected to keep their crews for any more than a few days at a time comfortably, if the cockpits seen in "The Maquis" are any indication.
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I concur- my idea for a saucer to house a Defiant was more to serve as a mobile construction yard to repair badly damaged Defiants, or be able to transport completely disabled ones back to starbase at high warp for extensive repairs. Such piggyback dockings would only be helpful for moving people and supplies, and then why not just use transporters.
Does the UFP actually make holoships? I guess this would be mostly conjecture, but we've only seen the Son'a try to use one- and I don't recall if we saw the control interface, guess I'll have to watch again to see if it was LCARS. I've seen many site credit the holoship as a "Federation" craft though. Course it also had a cloaking device... so if it is a Federation craft someone has some explaining to do to the Rommies.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The LCARS and bridge are definitely Federation design. You don't just roll these things out of an assembly yard, of course - they probably just took an existing bulk tansport and installed a hologrid in the main cargo compartment. We've seen Starfleet turn even alien cargo bays into makeshift holodecks (DS9), so it's hardly a tough thing to do.
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
*burp*
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ohh but the Defiant looks so cool attached to the Nebbie and the Galaxy!!
I can just picture it detaching and rolling right-side-up under the Galaxy saucer before coming over the top to dispatch a nice load of Jemmie Bugs.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
This is a little like what I envision- Large scallop doors on both sides of the saucer which could each take a Defiant Class in for repairs, the bay would extend down to deck 12, the lower decks of the saucer would be fairly standard but would contain more cargo bays for storage. It�d also still have the shuttle bays on the under side of the saucer. Eight 24m square landing pads like were used in DS9 added to both the port and starboard sides- everything from the phaser emitter out would be a large flight deck. Most of the windows are removed on the top forward section, and phaser emitters have been added up the hull.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Do they sit under the scallop doors or do they sit on a lift and move down a level or two.
What would this do to the structural integrity of the internal framework of the ship?
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
The doors are large enough for the Defiants to enter, and come down a couple decks on their own- or if it is that badly damaged tractor beams can be used. I think a lift of that size would take up too much room in the lower half of the saucer. The doors would then close. I think the framework should possibly be increased around the doors, but structural integrity would not be compromised. This would ofcourse be a "Don't do this at warp" thing.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'd imagine that CLOSED, the clamshell doors would be strong enough to keep everything together, but keeping those doors upon during combat or maneuvers would be a no-no. I'm more worried about the massive internal empty volume being a killer for integrity problems.
Anyhoo, I'm still not convinced that a portable Defiant-sized hangar is necessary or practical. Technology aside, how worthwhile is it to bring one back like that? It's probably not about people - the small standard crew can easily be evacuated by any starship of comparable size. A small ship like that was apparently not turned out by the score in the Dominion War, so would it make sense to build a starship specifically to bring one or two away from a battlefield? There also weren't many combat ships of that size anyway - the next cloest in size that we know would be the Miranda, I think, or possibly the Oberth. I'm imagining a parallel of building an armed supertanker that would be able to swallow submarines whole. Oh wait, that's been done.
The principal use of spacedock structures in Trek is to support lighting and presumably larger structural components in place suring construction and refit; in practice, you wouldn't be doing this in battlefield conditions, and so you'd bring it back. And in the case of bringing it back at warp speed, we've seen that cute little Klingon-esque tug doing just that in DS9, towing the relatively massive USS Fredicksen away from battle. Maybe not very fast, but still...
But I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here, since the design itself is pretty spiffy. Now, think of the numbers of FIGHTERS you could carry in there!
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Ok then... yeah... when not repairing a Defiant Class- fill the big internal bays full of fighters... and then when the next time a ship attacks you can release a massive wave of fighters upon them.
I ponder if would also be nice to have nifty robotic arms and such inside the bay to help repair hull damage on the Defiants, or be able to swing out and repair hull damage on the dorsal side of the saucer- or even on other vessels that park above the saucer.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
It's definitely a neato idea and nice job on the graphic, Shakaar. And it would go a long way towards explaining beyond desparation why SF would put so many ostensibly exploration/contact vessels on the front lines.
But I suspect the advantages of modifying even partially complete Galaxy saucer-sections would have to be balanced against constructing a specialty ship (one that might, say, repair 6 Defiants) or just building 3 new Defiants and retrofitting another Miranda. Stuff like that.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Thanks. and indeed.. I'm highly pondersome of their choice of vessels. We see the use of a lot of Federation fighters, Excelsior, Miranda, Galaxy, Akira in heavy numbers in Sacrifice of Angels- and I think I recall a Nebula Class, and perhaps other Defiant classes- but those were in very low numbers. There were zero Intrepid Class, which I guess one could rationalize is more an exploratory craft- but it should be tactically better than an ancient Miranda Class, and what of the Ambassador Class? We never see those though they are newer than the Excel or Miranda... the war was also totally devoid of the Prometheus and Sovereign Classes- I guess the Prometheus was Very new at that point� but still� no Sovs?
I know the Federation probably is very good about upkeep on their vessels- I know what the specs should be for a Miranda- but I�m sure all the ones we saw were �Lakotaized� to be in top fighting form� but still� no Sovs???
I guess they were at that other battle �that was more important� that was going on at the same time �somewhere else�
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well, they were keeping the Intrepid exclusive to Voyager and the reason Bellerophon was an Intrepid was because they were allowed to film on the Voyager sets. There was only one Prometheus and it really was a secret development. The Ambassador model had been damaged so that it couldn't be used and they were keeping Sovereign exclusive to the TNG movies.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Are those giant lifeboats along the saucer's edge? Those are about 200% larger than standard Galaxy lifeboats.
Might be nice to see a large, warp-capable lifeboat though.
Designwise, I think you'd be better off having the clamshell doors at the saucer's edge: that way there are two huge independant bays and no saucer's edge for damaged ships to crash into.
I dont dig the four extra phaser strips: it breaks up the design flow too much.
As long as the saucer is one giant hangar, why not lose the standard CGS shuttlebay- mabye have two smallish nacelles stem from there instead (as the saucer's lack of FTL always bothered me greatly).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
So no one likes the idea of a Defiant class being and auxillary vessel to a large craft?
That annoyed me with the Ambassador "oh we broke the model" crap. There have been several wonderful versions done by CGI artists on line - I think the one at Bernd's?? site - the comparison of the two types of Ambassadors is a fantastic model.
I'm sure it wouldn't have taken them that long to create on at Digital Muse or Foundation Imaging or whoever did the CGI work.
Oh and another Defiant-sized/Miranda-sized craft - the Sabre class.
I've have alway held onto the idea that the Sabre class was another "in-progress" borg battling "weapon". And don't believe that silly 8**** registry number. I would say they are still in the 7****'s.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Well, I'm not sure of the Defiant itself as an auxiliary craft, but I would concur that Starfleet needs more diversity in the craft it builds- it seems for most of their history they churned out same type of craft, some slightly different, but many seemed pretty cookie cutter just growing larger over time. I am happy that the Dominion war showed the use of fighters, and the tugs, but they really lack a good carrier to deploy a lot of them. It�s good to have ships that are multi-functional for all roles, but sometimes it seems that some ships don�t really fill a needed role, and that there are also no ships designed to fill it either.
I�m also somewhat disappointed with what I consider a short-term memory of ship use. For classes we see only once and then poof. Take the Vulcan Surak Class- it�s one of my favorite ship classes from all Trek, its form is so simple and elegant, yet toward the end of Enterprise, when we saw their fleet several times, it was devoid of the Surak.
I love the carrier, I think on Earth they have fully been proven as being the more important ships in the fleet- I know the Federation has felt in the past that Starfleet should be geared toward peaceful exploration/ scientific research, and they do not believe in �warships� but Egads, you are also responsible for the security and welfare of billions and billions of people, and there has been one war after the next for centuries, the Xindi, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Borg, Dominion, and pretty much every species outside the UFP has pretty much had some noted period of conflict.
A Carrier need not fill a fully military role, they can do a lot of functions better. A carrier in peace time can be used as a ship of exploration. It can be sent to a sector and send smaller craft to all the systems there- you could send a small craft to scan each individual planet. In days you could have a lot of highly detailed information on every aspect of the sector. Carriers make good hospital ships as well, when it comes to large scale planetary relief you need a ship with a vast capacity and a wide reach.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
The existance or otherwise of carriers in Trek is basically dependant on the utility of fighters. With FTL fire control of photon torpedoes there appears to me to be relatively little advantage of fighter craft.
On the other hand, I suppose they would be useful for long range surgical strikes, missions to disable enemy vessels for boarding and cheap system defence. Perhaps a role more like Light Attack Craft than fighters in the sense that we would think of them.
I don't think a specialised carrier design could compete with all the exploratory cruisers in times of peace. After all, the small craft complement of Starfleet's vessels is relatively high and if small craft could be used as a replacement for starship sensors, then I can't help but think they already would be.
A carrier design wouldn't necessarily have greatly increased capacity for planetary relief over an exploratory ship, especially a Galaxy, and we know Starfleet has specialised hospital ships.
Having said all that, I like the design Shakaar posted. The idea of a combat retrieval ship is a good one, but I'd think it'd be a tractor heavy, specialised design.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Are those giant lifeboats along the saucer's edge?
Designwise, I think you'd be better off having the clamshell doors at the saucer's edge: that way there are two huge independant bays and no saucer's edge for damaged ships to crash into.
As long as the saucer is one giant hangar, why not lose the standard CGS shuttlebay-
As I said above with the image, those are landing pads, like what were used in DS9. The outter edge I devoted to smaller craft. The Clamshell doors won't really work well all the way to the edge, because the very rim of the saucer is not thick enough- I did ponder some sort of cut in with doors on the dorsal, rim, and ventral side, but that would require a lot more modifications, time, and a more complex door, and it seemed less sound structurally. If the person on the Defiant at the helm cannot manage the door (though I made the bloody thing large enough they could slide it in sideways) They could be tractored in- I pondered larger doors were good so as to suit future craft of different sizes. The saucer is not one giant hangar, I would estimate that 55% is standard (all below deck 12, and everything through the center as wide as the main shuttlebay- but that has been changed up some, into cargo bays and auxilary power systems. 25% of the room is devoted to the two Defiant bays, and the 20% around both sides of the rim for small craft flight bays.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Might be nice to see a large, warp-capable lifeboat though."
They have those. They're called "shuttles".
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Even the fighters in DS9 were apparently warp capable. In which case, why do they need a carrier? Under no circumstance is the UFP going to launch a large scale offensive warp-days away from their own systems/star bases - so you stage you fighters from a fixed point.
At most you would need tenders. It would have been far more trekish for them to have called them patrol craft or even torpedo boats/craft or something. If they are not warp capable then they are useless except for system defense, and not even much use then. Send a couple of warbirds in (for example) one side of the system, wait for the sublight fighters to run over that way, then the rest of the fleet warps into the other side of the system....
Modern day carriers are powerful because ships have much longer range/endurance than aircraft. Aircraft are useful because they are much faster than ships. If the aircraft have similar endurance and less speed than ships then they can self deploy, but how do they catch their prey?
As for warp capable lifeboats - wow that would be expensive and heavy wouldn't it? A gaggle of standard lifeboats and a handful of warp shuttles would seem a better bet.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
With the lifeboats, you want something that can stay dormant in cold storage for a long time, then be instantly ready for action. My view of warp craft is that they need either constant upkeep if kept in flight standby, or else they'll need a while to get prepped for flight.
B.J.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
We've seen (crashed!) ships lie derilict for years get prepped for flight in no time.
Even the intentinally scrapped Hathaway was made warp capable....
I'm thinking of something that can do warp 2 or three for a few weeks time- just enough to really save somene on a ship that's really exploring. As for "lieing dormant", the GCS has those antimatter reserves in the saucer- the warp-pods could draw their warpcores from those (and lessen any nasty explosion from the abandonded saucer too).
I'd design a warp-sled like attachment that could haul a train of standard lifeboats at warp: like a locomotive does it's cars. Mabye one warp ship for every six standard lifeboats- the lifeboats can join together (as they're modular) to make large escape craft and to pool rescources.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
quote:Even the fighters in DS9 were apparently warp capable. In which case, why do they need a carrier?
Not all warp-capable ships are equal. I'd be surprised if a fighter class could go warp 9.
Fighters could still be useful compared to capital ships, even being limited to slower FTL speeds, so long as they maneuver better at sublight.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think the Starfleet Fighter is useful mostly for patrols and scaring off the occasional smuggler/pirate types. Trek has shown that most of it's civilian ships are made from wet cardboard and rarely have weapons a real Starship need take note of.
They might also serve as a kind of "roadside assistance" for ships in trouble between systems- if it's really 32 meters long, a Fighter could carry all sorts of emergency supplies- mabye even a stasis/biobed.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
But - if they are slow and only 32 meters long, how long do you really want to stay in one?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, "slow" is pretty relative: a fighter capable of warp 4 or 5 would be considered extremely capable and fast, if it's area of patrol is only a couple of systems and the space between.
Consider that modern fighter pilots are often crammed into their cockpit for 4-6 hours on adverage and up to 12 hours on extended missions.
A 32 meter long fighter with a bathrooom and replicator would be paradise by comparison.
A week on patrol would be no more difficult than those Runabout jaunts to Earth we saw on DS9.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Just thinking about the requirements of having a Defiant Class or a Maquis-raider type ship attached or piggy-backed onto a larger ship.
If a task-force was required in a distant sector rapidly (especially a borg incursion) Piggy back a few 'fighter' ships.
There is no way ships the size of the Defiant etc - a mid ranged ship can reach the speeds of a Galaxy-Class or Prometheus-Class or Sovereign-Class starship.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I like the idea above of having a warp sled that can be deployed during emergency situations. Deploy one or two warp sleds when the escape pods are ejecting. You all hook up then dock with the warp sled - then at least you have a fighting chance to get to a habitable star system - or the nearest shipping lanes.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Exactly- that was needed more during the Dominion War than at any other time.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Which the piggy-backed ships or the warp sleds?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Warp sleds/warp capable escape-evac craft.
"Piggy backing" might be neat to disguise the size of a fleet from long-range sensors, but I dont think the ships would need to be physically docked together to do it- larger warp bubbles and tractor beams should cover it.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
*cough*Prometheus*hack*
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ug. I hate that ship- all it needs is an Autobot symbol.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
LOL it didn't do anything other than dock three parts - I didn't see it transform into anything! Those DS9 kitbashes from A Call To Arms look more Transformerish Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I just cant stand the moving/docking parts aspect of it- millions of tonnes of sarship should not casually re-arrange themselves (shit like the Intrepid and Scimitar included). On TNG, the saucer seperation was a major undertaking..
The whole "multivector assualt mode" (aside from sounding like a video game weapon) is a gimmick that would never work effectivly once the secret was out (and once it became obvious that the top and lower sections cant dock at all without the center section, the center would get destroyed first).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That hasn't been proven.
I'm sure they can somehow dock.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I'd have to concur on the Prometheus- It just seems more logical to build three Defiants than one Prometheus, I would not go as far to say I hate the vessel (though I did ban it from my RP fleet). I do not feel just the docking alone makes it difficult- the only reason the Enterprise Saucer re-dock was made to seem stressful was because Picard told Riker to it manually (they have an easy button for it and it's not that difficult). But for use on a warship that is going to be taking damage- and on the Prometheus there are vast docking plates- which if the hull were damaged would not be able to come back together. So if any one part is destroyed or damaged, you kinda have a problem.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Well, long range it would still look like one ship. And if it is as automated as Voyager made it seem, the ship would require only one set of senior officers, while three smaller ships would require three.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
And I always thought that that episode would have made much more sense if it was a FERENGI Maruder and it's crew stealing the Prometheus... selling it to the highest bidder.
The Romulan crew didn't act Romulan - they acted Ferengi.
Then we would have seen some awesome Ferengi combat with the D'Kora class vessels.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Add to that, that the ship's phasers can apparacntly destroy a Warbird with no debris at all...(lame effects there). You'd think that after all the times the Enterprise was stolen by a small band of goons, Starfleet would have DNA recognition scanners for command functions- on it's newest warship in particular- and during a war with shape-shifters in particular.
While certanly not canon, the backstory for a few of my designs (for JOAT) includes experimental Emergency Security Holograms that use the internal sensors to verify I.D. Besides, an unkillable redshirt would have given the Romulans/Ferengi/Laughing Vulcan something to thik about (in the brig, naturally).
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: That hasn't been proven.
I'm sure they can somehow dock.
Nope- the hulls dont even remotely fit together. The top section has concave ventral side while the lower section has a flat dorsal side. It leaves about six decks of empty space between the two- open at the rear no less! The gap is about as large as a CGS shuttlebay.
The only design that looks practical as a seperateable ship is the Zandura design -as that would split evenly into two equal starships and it seems to be a science vessel- twice the research at one time, then rejoin after a few weeks to compare notes.
I really gotta build a model of that. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Starfleet computers have always struck me a wussies. The Prometheus' computer apparently knew it had been taken over by Romulans, but was perfectly happy to serve and obey them. Seska, IIRC, sat down in Janeway's chair, told the computer the Kazon were taking over, and the computer just started obeying. It locked out Starfleet access, etc. Now, I know the computers can't think or anything, and will obey whoever has clearance, but shouldn't some things just be no brainers. "All Starfleet crew on ship dead. Romulans on all decks. Hmmm... Maybe I should lock out all command systems and send an emergency signal."
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I think someone that watched a lot of 20th century movies (where man builds robot, robot becomes evil and kills man, robot builds more robots, robots take over the world) and is scared that if they make a smart computer and give it some form of control over itself that all hell will hit the fan. It's a very Founder "what you control can't hurt you" policy. If thinking holograms are possible, then AI subroutines for the ship should be as well- Terrans do have control issues though. I think someone should go to Kavis Alpha IV and work a deal out with the nanite civilization... but a ship that could think for itself, always take the best move, repair itself, repair injured crew, fight off the Borg on a nano-level would kill off any story idea one could think of.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
The trouble with DNA scanners for command functions would be when a crew member finds him or herself in another's body. We've seen that more times than someone taking over the ship. Personally, if I had a new prototype ship, with a whole new concept in hull design, I'd keep the computer as simple and as standard as possible, one less area of error checking...
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I had a new prototype ship with a whole new concept in hull design, I'd keep the damned thing where the Romulans couldn't get to it!
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
But they are so SNEAKY - blasted pointy eared snoopers... we hates them forever. Especially the fat one.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
How did the Rommies capture it I wonder- At one point they stated it was impossible for a ship to slip into Federation space because of the tachyon detection network- Even the Defiant had extra security with palm scans to gain access to the ship. Sneaky indeed.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Most likely it was outside of both Federation and Romulan space which allowed the Romulans to sneak up cloaked and board her before it was possible for the Prometheus crew to respond to the threat.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And then you see how often Voyager has been ransacked, henpecked, hijacked, or just outright stolen...
Tiny reversion to that carrier saucer design.. The secondary landing pads: are they not on the angled surface of the dorsal side? Are they recessed, or is the saucer perimeter itself flat? I know that the gravity fields can technically allow craft to land on nonparallel angles to the main deck layout, but c'mon - this is Trek here.
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not sure I see why the Romulans trying to steal the ship is a problem, Andrew. Has there ever been a Romulan story that didn't involve some form of espionage? And if you squint just right, it even makes sense for the Prometheus to be in that general area. There was a war going on on the other side of the Federation, after all.
("Say, Romulan embassy, you didn't happen to see a ship that we swear was just a humble mining tug, did you?" "Uh. . . no? Maybe a changeling took it. I mean, if it was taken.") And then they could blame it on those Jem'Hadar that just happened to be "sneaking" through Romulan territory to strike distant UFP targets.
Also, while I sympathize with almost all comments on the general silliness of various Prometheus particulars, I like the ship's overall design.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Very keen observation Mark- the saucer is pretty much a stock design, so it is angled *takes out a mallet and makes some dents* Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Perhaps the ship controls are not DNA-specific so that, when someone does take over, their first act is not to cut off the captain's hands to use to control the ship.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sweet: the landing pads look like giant pinball flipper for deflecting torpedos...the straight phasers are the bouncy parts in our Trek pinball ship...
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Perhaps the ship controls are not DNA-specific so that, when someone does take over, their first act is not to cut off the captain's hands to use to control the ship.
You'd think that with their sensors (capable of detecting radiation in a nebula down to parts per million), the ship's internal sensors could monitor vocal, retenal and DNA patterns of key personell.
Probably catch ongoing DNA samples via the person's respiration.
Besides, you'd think the holograms could have just flushed the ship's atmosphere...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
If there's one thing we know about the Federation, they're Safety Nazis. Especially when it comes to a Starship's environmental controls. You got triple-redundancies, failsafes, backups etc. They're all going to kick in as soon as a pressure loss is detected. And even if they were all bypassed, you can be sure a little readout would start blinking on the bridge. There are probably some detectors which would also be there to notice unwanted chemicals in the atmosphere, hence the need to release the knockout gas from Environmental Control where it could be 'officially' added to the mix.
And, remember these are medical holograms. I doubt they could overcome their programming sufficiently to then consider deliberately asphyxiating living beings.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(Though intruders have been explosively disembarked on other Starfleet ships.)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Ah yes... the Borg space walk in Scorpion. That was sweet.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
And VERY out of scale.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah... it made the cargo hatch and rim of the saucer look humungazoid.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yeah, but that was a controlled ventilation, from a cargo bay that could well have the ability to vent its atmosphere if needed. We've seen that many such external openings have force fields (shuttlebays, that room in ST:FC) but there must be a way to deactivate them remotely with the proper authorisation.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I never realized how non-scale that looked. Hey, they even put tiny windows on the bottom lip of the spoon section! What's that for, the gerbil crew members?
Mark
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Those windows are on the secondary hull, far behind the saucer edge in the foreground. But yeah, those are rather tiny Borg. Did they assimilate the Oompah Loompah planet?
B.J.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Stoopid low-rez images... Anyone figure out the actual size discrepency?
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Perhaps the hole they are coming out of is just gianormus?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, the opening is a shuttle docking ring. The Borg should be almost as tall as the opening itself. They look to be 20-30% too small.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Sorta true, though it itsn't necessarily a REAL man-sied hatch. Mind you, I do remember a picture of a deleted scene from "Caretaker" which had Paris and Kim coming aboard Voyager through that hatch. It wasn't an airlock set as on DS9 - just a larger set of intereor doors. Does anyone have that "making of Voyager" book from Pocket, published in the first couple of seasons?
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Why would Paris and Kim have come aboard through that hatch? They were in a shuttle craft. How would it have docked with that hatch? Do the shuttlecraft have some kind of hidden extendable docking collar?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The very first scene where we see Voyager was when Paris and Lt. Stadi were arriving at DS9 via shuttlecraft, presumably from another ship orbiting the station (otherwise that would have been a looooong trip - although Stadi WAS hot. ). Right after, we go to the scene where Kim was busy being fleeced by Quark, where Paris shows up. And right after THAT, we get the scene in sickbay with Dr. Fitzgerald. In between the last two there is a purported scene where the two actually board Voyager. The book is "Voyager: A Vision of the Future". I quite distinctly remember this pic while leafing through a copy in the bookstore bargain bin some years back.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Ahhhh... ok. I remember now. And Voyager was docked to the station by means of the saucer port.
Yah, I'd be interested in seeing that pic too.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The borg is about 40% too small in that scene (the hatch should be about 9-10' tall at a guess).
Of course, the fact that Voyager is an absolutely huge ship (compared with a Connie Refit, aircraft carrier or an adverage crewman) was always played down.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
But if the decks of the ship are 3.5 m tall, the vertical wall on the rim probably ought to be quite a bit more than 4 m, and the doorway about 3 m across at a minimum rather than maximum. The discrepancy need not be quite that great in that case. In any case, this isn't your grandfather's docking ring, compatible with the movie "travel pods"...
Somebody a bit less comatose than me could probably be bothered to measure the diameter exactly. (Or perhaps somebody already did. Was that a guesstimate or a nerdishly accurate measurement, Jason?)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It certainly looks like a docking ring, what with the alternating male and female connection points all around the inner ring.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Something that I reckon would be standard amongst most Federation starships. There is a docking port that would fit the same diameter as this on the Enterprise-D - seen used in "11001001".
The Original Doctor was called Dr. Fitzgerald?? Where'd you get that tid-bit of info? I always wondered what his and the First Officer's name was! I mean it was pretty mean to not even introduce them with a name. I mean it would have made for a bit more of a Shock when they were killed by the Caretaker's wave.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
The XO's name is Cavot or Cavit or something like that. Janeway introduced Paris and Kim (or just Kim) to him on the bridge.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That's right.
We def didn't get the CMO's name though.
Nor the CEO - although we didn't see Engineering before the Delta Quadrant did we?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Dr. Fitzgerald must just come from the script, though, as I don't remember ever hearing his name during the episode.
I'm pretty sure all we ever found out about the chief engineer is that he or she was dead and that Carey was next in line.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Somebody a bit less comatose than me could probably be bothered to measure the diameter exactly. (Or perhaps somebody already did. Was that a guesstimate or a nerdishly accurate measurement, Jason?)
Timo Saloniemi
Just, (as pointed out) that it's almost certainly a standard sized docking ring for Fed ships (and having seen/built that particular model, that part looks to be the "standard" size- it's not noticably larger.
The 40% thing is just my decade of printing (and scaling to match copy) experience showing itself off. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There was a list of casualties viewed by Seven in some episode or another, perhaps in "Ashes to Ashes" or something like that. This list had two LtCmdrs who'd almost have to be the CMO and the CEO.
As usual, I don't have the facts directly available, but perhaps this jogs the memory of somebody who has this archived?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Check Bernd's site regarding that display. And the display has names that come from "The West Wing" characters. And there was even one Commander on the list.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Fitzgerald is from the novelization of "Caretaker", actually. Note that he was played by that supersoldier guy from a TNG epsiode that also co-starred the Zephram Cochrane dude before he became famous.
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
*wonders* Do moderators move parts of threads to new thread when they change topic?
Lt. Commander Cavit was introduced to both Kim and Paris, he shook Kim's hand and welcomed him aboard, and then turn and left Paris standing there.
I find the low ranks of Voyager crew to be odd. The XO was a Lt. Commander, and Kim- who I had thought must have taken over at Ops because the previous person was killed, was actually put in charge of Ops on the main duty shift as an Ensign from the very start.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I don't think it's odd that an XO is a LCDR. We've seen Data act in the capacity under Jellico and the Odyssey's XO was an LCDR as well. Plus for a short time Spock was an XO as an LCDR. And I also don't see a problem with Kim being an Ensign and the Operations Officer.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
MOST first officers aboard starships are of the 2.5 pip variety. The notable exceptions are Spock 2nd season onwards), Riker, and one or two others (including one breveted cadet). Chakotay and Sisko were both of that rank while first officers on their respective ships.
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Very true... I guess I never had a problem with Sisko being a commander, but being the CO of a station, or any other occasion of ranks seeming low, except for Kim- rank is usually a measure of experience, skill and time you've put into your duty, so it just seemed odd that he could be an Ensign, and then be put in charge of Ops, and be in command on night watch- are there no higher ranking officers on the ship? We really should do a study of every officer mentioned... I also wonder exactly how many Maquis crew there really were- in Caretaker there were just three- and then the others came out of the woodwork later- and they seemed to keep coming out of the woodwork.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
You can do that study yourself!
Harry was never promoted because the Voyager producers/writers were lazy and then when they realised it was a bit rediculous him still being and Ensign hey kept it as a bit of a joke.
If everyone was continually promoted though - they'd all be commanders.
I think Harry's experience was well known on the ship and that he would automatically achieve seniority based on that fact.
There were always more than 3 Maquis... there were at least 40. An actual number was given.
OK I looked the last 4 up - to refresh my memory! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's sad that Paris went from being aprisoner, to outranking Harry, to a prisoner again, to outranking harry (again).
Kim should have disobeyed orders more often.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Even Tuvok started as a Lt. Commander was then mysteriously demoted to Full Lt. then promoted with much fanfare to Lt. Commander again later in the series.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
More laziness on the part of the production staff, apparently. He was always supposed to be a Lt., as I recall, but unbelieveably, they made a mistake and outfitted him with an extra half a pip. He was never addressed as Commander or Lt. Commander until he was promoted later in the series.
Paris was made a Lt. at the beginning of the series because he had likely already acheived that rank before being drummed out of Starfleet. Janeway simply reinstated his rank.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Actually, Paris started off with full lieutenant pips, and then they changed to the junior grade rank at the same time as they fixed Tuvok's. It's harder to say if this was a mistake from the beginning or a mid-season tweak though, as junior grade's are always called "lieutenant" anyway.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: MOST first officers aboard starships are of the 2.5 pip variety. The notable exceptions are Spock 2nd season onwards),
And, to highlight that Voyager was possibly just following a TOS tradition, while Spock was called a lt commander in some first season episodes he always wore full commander stripes. I don't think anyone knows if it's a costuming error that he didn't have the one and one half sripe, or if it was a script error that gave him the wrong rank.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Alien Affirmative Action at work?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Wasn't Kim's posting a prestige one because he's graduated top of his class at the Academy? Ops officer on one of the newest Starfleet marques, largely possible because of its small screw size.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
If it helps at all, in the alternate time line from "Non-Sequiter" Kim's request for a position on Voyager was denied and it went to his buddy. Kim, while muttering to himself, didn't seem surprised about the assignment being a request, so we can probably assume that he requested the assignment on Voyager in the real timeline too. The only other similar instance I can think of is Bashir requesting an assignment on DS9. He said he could've had any assignment he wanted, because he placed so high in his class at Med School. So Kim's ability to request a post might indeed be due to super overachievement, but I don't think he ever said so explicitly.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I could have had any posting on the internet: I chose Flare. You know, a chance to practice real frontier sarcasm...
I dont recall ever hearing that Kim graduated top of his class (though in truth there are probably 20 episodes of Voyager I've just skipped alltogether).
Mabye Janeway just likes the asian boys....or mabye Cavat knew his family or something. It's not like Janeway had to select the entire crew herself for what should have benn a short mission. I mean, her CMO and first officer were total (unprofessional) fuckos, so it's unlikely she's worked with them prior (or she's a real bad judg of character).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The only member of the crew Janeway specifically says she personally chose was Tuvok, who she had most definitely worked with before. TNG gave the impression that all captains hand pick their XOs and it was a super big deal to do so. So maybe Janeway had thumbed through a bunch of files until she found someone who wouldn't make fun of her hair. But maybe Picard just whined until he got a say in the matter.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or mabye Picard had more clout (as Voyager was Janeway's first command).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
There's some confusion about that isn't there? I'm pretty sure the admiral in "Relativity" said it was her first, but elsewhere it seemed evident that she had commanded another ship.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
I'm pretty sure that she said that she first met Tuvok during her first command, although I don't know if this was ever expanded on.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: It's sad that Paris went from being aprisoner, to outranking Harry, to a prisoner again, to outranking harry (again).
Kim should have disobeyed orders more often.
Or started hitting on the local half-klingon chick while still flirting with the Captain.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'm sure we discussed Janeway's previous command before. Perhaps one of our wizard site-searchers (Jason or Cartman, say, who have this ability to recall and locate something I posted 5 years ago) can dig it up.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Maybe. But that's not a discussion I participated in, or even remember, since I was away at the time.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(Well, I just searched for "Janeway's previous command.")
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"until someone at Voyager decides to pull a Captain Kirk on us and switch it."
What the heck did I mean by that?
I think the actual line from the episode that mentions the Billings says it was her first assignment "as commander". So whether "commander is capitalized or not makes all the difference. It could mean her first assignment as the commander of the ship, or her first assignment with the rank of Commander. The context seemed to indicate that Tuvok was talking about the trials of command, though, so I've always thought she was the captain of that ship. Though... she might have been the captain of the ship with the rank of Commander...
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
TNG-Lower Decks was on today, (where Sito and Lovell were up for the third rotation Ops position against one another and Sito is later killed in a mission she accepted in Cardassian space.) They were both Ensigns fresh out of the academy- Sito was actually in the lead for the position until she was killed- her academy record was certainly not the best of her class, quite the contrary after her problem with lying to the inquiry over the coverup� Lovell got the position nearly by default, and he got promoted to Lt�. While Ensign Kim was head of his class, Joe Starfleet, Head of Ops on the primary shift, and Janeway wouldn�t give up the pip for him. Kim was robbed I say!
In Caretaker when all the Maquis came aboard and put on their new Starfleet uniforms, Seska had on blue and appeared to have been put in charge of science on the bridge, but after that she moved to engineering� Perhaps more plotting could be done there� Voyager always seemed to lack a science officer.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Janeway probably wanted to micromanage that department herself...
The ship may have left harbor without a science complement aboard, considering her three-hour mission to find and apprehend a group of Maquis ripe for picking. With Caretaker's antics causing a general crew shortage, few of the Maquis replacements would have been shunted to this department (and few would probably have been qualified).
Somebody like Sam Wildman would do the odd science jobs, but she might not have a proper department around her, and Janeway would rely heavily on her engineers and her own wits for scientificialish solutions.
It's less easy to explain why the E-D would have no clearly defined Science Dept head, or a greater role for the assorted sub-department heads like Neela Darren.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
But at least they had the can't-live-without-it position of Historical Fiction Expert filled.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What was the position of that woman who wanted to shag Kahn? (Jason, leave it!)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I believe they call that position, "Congress of the Cow"
I believe Kahn's soon-to-be-strumpet's position on the ship was only slightly less useless. Does a ship exploring unknown space need an expert on Earth history aboard?
The Historical Fiction Expert was Mr. Whalen from TNG's "The Big Goodbye." To keep myself from completely ignoring certain elements of season one, I'm assuming that Picard simply knew he was an expert on fiction, but that his actual job on the ship was something else. Hardly seems likely that season one Picard would know that much about his nobody crewmembers' personal interests, though.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Does a ship exploring unknown space need an expert on Earth history aboard?
The way EVERY ship seems to find an alternate Earth/Timeline/Parallel development? Its a wonder that the historian doesn't end up commanding the ship.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
The bridge design of the Enterprise-D seemed to make science seem less important too... If I were saying who sat where I'd put that at least next to Worf, but perhaps the science person like the larger screens and sit-down chairs.
Perhaps Picard as history buff talked with other ship history buffs? I bet they had a club or some'n, those scenes got cut out though... Hey, space exploration isn't always exciting.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Whalen in "The Big Goodbye" wasn't an expert in historical fiction, but in actual history. That'd of course also be helpful when dealing with the supposed 1930s setting.
On a highly automated ship with a thousand crew and supposedly not-quite-useless passengers, one is hard pressed to think of meaningful jobs for everybody. Mr Whalen could have been appointed Official Historian (or A&A, or whatever) just to keep him from going stir-crazy when Mrs Whalen tended the fusion reactors.
Then again, why label this "make-work"? An Earth historian could do good research aboard a starship that has vast and well-organized records - perhaps better than in a planetbound university, even! He might also wish to examine the local records of Earth's assorted colonies. His mission might not be vital to the ship's mission, but OTOH an Earth Historian has indeed often been a handy asset for the Enterprises...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I'm sure we discussed Janeway's previous command before. Perhaps one of our wizard site-searchers (Jason or Cartman, say, who have this ability to recall and locate something I posted 5 years ago) can dig it up.
Before my time I'm afraid.
Sometimes I search for a topic (usually on starships) and am suprised that it took place before I was a member. As though this place, the internet or anything else ever existed before I dreamed it up. Silly.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: What was the position of that woman who wanted to shag Kahn? (Jason, leave it!)
Okay, but this is the one refrain I'll promise for the year.
As to Kim, he'll be doubly left behind- all of his (surviving) classmates would have served through the Dominion War and likely advanced far past him.
Fuck, Nog can order him to clean waste extraction. "Should've bought uncle Quark's gems, hew-mon.." Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I'd say that most of the science people would be below decks, monitoring their own specialized equipment. The stations on the bridge are probably mostly for keeping the bridge apprised of what they're doing or for coordinating efforts.
As for an Earth history expert, they might be useful in helping to understand a new culture by using references from our own past.
B.J.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Probably part of a specialist in First Contact procedures- explaining earth -and core UFP worlds- histories to an unafmilliar species, and look for cultural simmalarities.
Probably to put the best possible spin on things, rather than have them find out all that nasty "genocide" stuff later on and make the UFP seem deceptive.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm almost sure Whalen was identified as a fiction expert. I'll have to go watch again, though.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Picard later called Whalen a "Lit-historian", suggesting that he specialized in literature.
I wonder what the guy did on the ship when he's not going through holodeck fantasies. How often ins earth history referenced out there that they'd need a shipboard expert? I mean, it's not like they'd find a chevy truck floating out in space or something.
And for an historian, I'm surprised he'd be so amazed by the holodeck when he went in there - it'd be one of an historian's most important tool, no?
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'd say no, actually. You can use a holodeck to recreate historical settings, but only if someone's done the research first.
Posted by Joshua Bell (Member # 327) on :
And high-fidelity holodecks were brand spanking new during the first season of TNG. The way everyone acts around it, it's as if the thing has just come out of a Starfleet Research lab back on Earth and was wedged into the hull with a minimum amount of testing. The kids thought it was no big deal, but the grups were all agog at the new toy.
Actually, the idea that the holodeck is running pre-beta software would explain a heck of a lot.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"Obviously you're new to these Galaxy Class ships, Commander. Tell ME the location of Lt. Commander Data. And as you can see Commander... it's pointing the way."
How did they let that take make it to air? On the plus side, Riker did seem pretty annoyed with her.
But the point is, I guess, that alot of things were new at that point. Riker didn't even seem to know what the holodeck was.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sooo glad I skipped that episode- If only I'd had the forsight to do the same with Endgame.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: "Obviously you're new to these Galaxy Class ships, Commander. Tell ME the location of Lt. Commander Data. And as you can see Commander... it's pointing the way."
How did they let that take make it to air? On the plus side, Riker did seem pretty annoyed with her.
But the point is, I guess, that alot of things were new at that point. Riker didn't even seem to know what the holodeck was.
I didn't gather from that, that Riker didn't know what a holodeck WAS, just that he didn't know where Data was. Silly scene which I think was simply put in there to have the woman check Riker out when he left showing that in the future sluts still get positions by sleeping their way to the top there is a clear equality between the sexes.
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a smaller ship like the defiant using the useless captain's yacht dock.
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). Right after, we go to the scene where Kim was busy being fleeced by Quark, where Paris shows up. And right after THAT, we get the scene in sickbay with Dr. Fitzgerald. In between the last two there is a purported scene where the two actually board Voyager. The book is "Voyager: A Vision of the Future". I quite distinctly remember this pic while leafing through a copy in the bookstore bargain bin some years back.