posted
I question Starfleet�s strategy during the war with the Dominion.
When the Galaxy Class was designed with a saucer section that could separate, the logic was explained that most of the saucer section was devoted to living quarters, extra science labs, recreation facilities (holodecks and other exercise areas), hydroponics labs, arboretum, and room for families to live. And in a battle, the saucer could be left behind somewhere for the stardrive section to go into battle.
In the Dominion war it seemed all the starships stopped at one base or another, joined into fleets and we saw that all the Galaxy Class vessels went to war with their saucers. In Best of Both Worlds pt 1 Riker rejects the idea of saucer separation to fight the Borg because they might need the energy from the saucer section�s impulse engines- I find this argument a bit odd as the warp reactor can produce how many thousand fold the energy that the saucer could provide? And if one subtracts the power that needs to be used to shield the entire ship, to that of what it would take to shield just the drive section, combined with the power the saucer draws for life support and all the other systems- I don�t feel it�s a plus to have it along, that and without it the ship�s mass is less which is a plus, and it�s profile is greatly reduced�
So, if captains seem to want to take a saucer into battle, I ponder it would just be best to have a secondary saucer designed for this� a battlefield saucer. When war is declared, ships set course for the nearest starbase and instruct the families and extra personnel to the saucer, all required crew go to the stardrive/battlebridge. When they get to the starbase the saucers are switched out� the new one would have no quarters, only extra fusion generators, torpedo launchers, phasers emitters, and fighter bays. The Galaxy Class Saucer is big enough to house two Defiant Class vessels (though it would be very awkward to refit an older saucer for this and a new design would be better) �an old one could be refit with bays to hold many Peregrine Class however. It could be made into a great warship and carrier. The Defiant and Peregrine can certainly get to the battlefield on their own without the need for a carrier, but as we saw in DS9, wars can drag out- and far from home, with few places to set in for repair. A battlefield saucer could certainly help expedite repairs on at least the smaller ships in the fleet.
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posted
Interesting Idea, however how often would a ship in combat be able to take a detour to a starbase,
Hailing enemy vessel attacking planet: Hold there a sec, we'll be back in a couple of days
However it would seem starfleet has already applied this principle to the Nebula class with it's swappable module, and one would assume the Akira class (Come on, would Starfleet be sending out that class all the time with that many weapons? Swap that module full of torpedo launchers with one with sensors, and put it to more general use)
As far a the Galaxy class goes, the TNG manual states that the saucer is modular itself. One could argue that the combat galaxy classes we saw in DS9 either had little in the saucer (improving the weight/impulse engine ratio) or was full of repair and first aid facilities.
The Space shuttle has several possible modes of operation, (Shuttle C for cargo), it would be interesting to explore possible conversions of starships to fit more specific roles (you could argue that the lantree was an example of this, a cargo conversion of the miranda class)
I've often though that the intrepid class would make a interesting cargo vessel, add some rapid delivery system to the bottom of the secondary hull, and it could be the starfleet equivalent of the planet express ship (after painting it green).
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posted
But, we don't know that the Galaxies we saw in the war didn't have augmented saucers. Certainly we saw a rate of fire that I don't recall seeing on the E.
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Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Also it's unlikely that the Galaxies in the war carried the non-combatants that the E-D did in TNG, reducing the need for saucer seperation.
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Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Common facts skipped over when discussing this:
-Riker dissed Shelby on seperating the saucer in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part I", saying they could use the maneuverability from the impulse engines in the saucer (or at least the power from them). Indeed, the various CG versions of the Galaxy class during the war usually see them lit. They're lit again in ENT "These Are the Voyages" while the E-D is in an asteroid field; both these cases are VFX gaffes, but they're easy to rationalize.
-According to the TNG Tech Manual (whose information will become less commonly known now that the book isn't easy to find anymore) states that Galaxies typically have a significant volume of their saucers empty to allow for future expansion or modification. Layover-swappable modules are suggested, such that any given ship could be modified presumably in a matter of weeks at a suitable starbase. This is a step down, it seems, from the Nebula's module, which is doubtless just as internally pliable, or even entirely so to a good degree (though we've never seen any evidence that whole module replacement is commonly done).
-Likewise, the DS9 TM posits the existence of "Sternbach Galaxies" (sic) that left spacedock with most of their volumes empty, putting in just the basics and additional weapons - without even bothering to put labeling on their hulls. This explains the "cobra neck" ships we see in DS9, without registries and a curiously dark grey neck compared to the usual ships we see (another VFX slip up). As for what "extra weapons" means, most think that it accounts for extra phaser capacitors and torpedo casings, since there were no apparent extra phaser mounts visible on the model. However, this never stopped phasers from erupting from all sorts of wierd places on ships like Defiant or Lakota, so that's not really saying much.
posted
Considering how long it took to build the first few Galaxy-class ships, and the fact that a good number of them seemed to suddenly spring up in time for the war, I think that Sternbach's explanation is really the best � that they skimped on most of the saucer's facilities like extra quarters, science labs, holodecks, and so forth.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the TNG:TM somewhere say that phaser power output is proportional to the length of the linked emitters � that is, that each emitter segment can pass on its accumulated energy to the next segment in the line? That would provide a big incentive for having the whole saucer � more phaser output over a much larger area, providing greater combat strength.
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posted
I think the phaser thing has been invalidated by most subsequent starship designs, which split the phaser strips up if for no other reason than to look cool (indeed, Sternbach himself has used this reason to explain phaser strips on Voyager). Perhaps it was a genuine reason behind the Galaxy design, but in other starships with similar phaser types is just doesn't seem workable.
quote:Originally posted by tricky: Hailing enemy vessel attacking planet: Hold there a sec, we'll be back in a couple of days
I would not recommend it for all combat situations- but with the Dominion war- or any protracted war, ships must travel from all over the Federation to the front, and many would likely have to stop by a starbase anyway to offload non-essential crew and families.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Indeed, the various CG versions of the Galaxy class during the war usually see them lit. They're lit again in ENT "These Are the Voyages" while the E-D is in an asteroid field; both these cases are VFX gaffes, but they're easy to rationalize.
Very good thinking, though the Enterprise was using the saucers impulse engines at the time Pressman came aboard- long before they got to the system to look for the Pegasus. But it's also good to ignore it and rationalize it, and assume that perhaps the saucers they used in the war were different that what we saw from the Ent-D.
I just pondered it conflicted with the first law, and the stated reason for the detachable saucer.
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posted
You could always kick all the civvies and non-essential crew off a Galaxy, pack the living quarters with troops, medics, and other personell whose skills would be useful on a battlefield, and use the ship as a transport. I forget what the TM says the Galaxy-Class is capable of transporting, but if you've got ten folks sharing a former civillian's apartment on Deck Five, and folks in racks in the corridors, I'd imagine you could just about transport a fairly impressive relief force.
posted
You could turn most of the lower half of the saucer into a huge cargo complex for transporting relief, rebuilding, and war supplies. You've got those two massive doors on the underside of the saucer, might as well go with it.
You could also temporarily expand the size of the saucer's shuttle bay. Although, if I'm remembering correctly, didn't y'all decide way back when that the fighters we saw in the DS9 battle sequences were too big for the saucer's shuttle bay?
I don't know about the idea of housing one or two Defiants in the saucer. You'd have to redesign the structure of the saucer from scratch for that one, and I don't really think there'd be any incentive for letting the Defiants hitch a ride on the Galaxys.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Yes, the Galaxy-class as designed for TNG would not make for a very useful fighter- or shuttle- carrier, other than for tiny craft like the Type-6 shuttle. The main shuttlebay has a huge column in the core area for turbolift shafts, support facilities, and other equipment.
Depending on the size of the Peregrines, you might be able to fit a dozen AT MOST. And runabouts? Forget it!
(Of course, the idea of customized wartime saucers or half-empty hulls with lots of extra storage space brings all this into question. I suppose it's possible they'd expand the hangar facilities... certainly the Galaxy, having the greatest internal volume, makes for the best candidate for transport service.)
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posted
The idea behind a Defiant dock within the saucer section would not be to make a Defiant without warp- it's not to turn the Defiant into a fighter that would require a carrier- the idea behind it is to create a means to fully repair ships Defiant and smaller, in a battlefield situation. With the Dominion war there'd be an engagement, and then afterward we'd see the Federation fleet limping along with many vessels crippled- so I think it'd be good to have a saucer designed to server a carrier role, even if it was just one or two, that could take in and repair the Defiant class, and the fighters.
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quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Depending on the size of the Peregrines, you might be able to fit a dozen AT MOST. And runabouts? Forget it!
The Enterprise did offload three runabouts. I wish there was a little big more info on the Peregrine Class- and just what the "Fighter" is. There is the Peregrine Class, which is a courier: http://www.stguardian.to/fed/peregrine/perewall.jpg So it's larger than the "Fighter", larger than a runabout, but certainly smaller than the Defiant, designed for small cargo runs, they were also procured by the Maquis, and one of this class was stranded in the Delta Quadrant with Voyager. I'm unaware if any Peregrine Class were seen fighting in the Domion war.
Then there's the Fighter: http://www.geocities.com/stg63541/peregrine.jpg and from the window, you cans see that this is a much smaller vessel with room for just one or two people, and these craft were seen throughout the Dominion war... they are similar in form to the Peregrine Class and share the same design lineage- and a lot of people call them Peregrine- but they are so different that I do not feel that is correct, so I call them "Fighters" since that's what they call them in DS9.
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