"ONE YEAR LATER?" You've gotta be fracking kidding me! Now I know what Moore was talking about in his podcast last week...
I'm going to have to wait a while to make final judgment (and probably wait to see next season where this leads), but I can certainly see the need for that development. You kinda need to have a quick payoff on "Baltar's Big Frack-Up". But I think that it was not the greatest idea, because it kinda minimizes all the experiences of every other dang character in the show. This means we never get to see Laura Roslin in the immediate aftermath of her loss. We never get to see how Tyrol managed to resolve his inner demons. We never get to see how Sharon coped... was she stuck in the Galactica's brig for that whole year? What about Helo? We never get to see Apollo settling in to his command of the Pegasus.
Various inferences from the scenes and/or dialogue:
Kara and Anders got married. Tyrol and Cally got married and have a kid on the way. Lee and Dee have shacked up on the Pegasus. Roslin's decided to revert to her old job of kindergarten teacher. Sharon and Helo's baby is still alive and well (hmm, that may actually be another good reason for the year's jump, 'cause the kid probably needs to grow up a little to advance the plot). And I completely lost all respect for Felix Gaeta, since he's become *cough* President Baltar's *grumble* aide.
And now, I need to go out and hunt down whoever the fucking idiot is who thought it's a good idea to hold back new episodes until freaking October! Bastards!
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
The Priest, IS a cylon? He was praising the lords on Caprica and to Roswell at the same time, LOL!
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Roslin ... not Roswell. Posted by Pwesty (Member # 1035) on :
Hi Guys After seeing last night show I think that they show change the show title to Battlestar Deadwood. Adama could change his name to Wild bill, I do not know how everybody else fells about it but I have a bad felling that the show is in trouble now but I�ll keep my figures cross that Moore knows what he is doing. Just my two cents Pw
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
"After seeing last night show I think that they show change the show title to Battlestar Deadwood"
How about Galactica: 1980 ?
Anyways, I knew the whole cyclon truce was a flubb. My real question is what happened to Number 6 and 8 on Caprica? Was their little reform crushed by the cylons only to have the cylons use it as a ruse to fool the humans into thinking the war was over?
As for Galactica and Pegasus and the remaining ragtag fleet, I'm guessing their only real option is to find Earth now.
Well we'll just have to wait till octoberfest...
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: "After seeing last night show I think that they show change the show title to Battlestar Deadwood"
How about Galactica: 1980 ?
Anyways, I knew the whole cyclon truce was a flubb. My real question is what happened to Number 6 and 8 on Caprica? Was their little reform crushed by the cylons only to have the cylons use it as a ruse to fool the humans into thinking the war was over?
As for Galactica and Pegasus and the remaining ragtag fleet, I'm guessing their only real option is to find Earth now.
Well we'll just have to wait till octoberfest...
there was 39,odd K on planet. Questions tha beg:
How many troops and civies on the P-G-RTFF?
How many lost from the nuke on the Paradise-9?How many ships damaged/destroyed in the explosion? (from the photage, it seems more than a few ships were in the blast wake. PICS PlzTU!)
Was P-9 Blond Lady truly sad to go? if that was Baltar's Imagine-Girl, who set us up the bomb?
Endgame? Checkmate?
When does the SDF-1 Macross or SDF-2 Megaroad or SBS Yamato or Enterprise-Nil/A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/I/J/K/L/M/N/O/P/Q/R/S/T/U/V/W/X/Y/Z/AA/AB/AC/AD/AE.... save the day?
until then, frankly my dear, i guess we're fuckered...
Posted by Pwesty (Member # 1035) on :
Hey Guys I was just listing to the BG Podcast on itunes and I have some news. From what I heard they have said that Edward James Olmos is not coming back. Anybody else anything about this? Pw
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"My real question is what happened to Number 6 and 8 on Caprica?"
From the look on her face, I got the impression "Caprica" Six was the one who showed up in Baltar's office on New Caprica. I'm not sure why she would have been there, though.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, given their status as "heroes", it seems logical that both Caprica Six and Boomer Mk. I would be representing the Cylons during their grand entrance. For all we know they could be becoming leaders of the Cylon culture as a whole.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Funny but I thought that when they made the pact to start new life it wouldn't be to keep killing humans. Either the Sharon and Six we see are not the same ones from "Downloaded" or something happened to change their minds. But you know what, that little cylon parade at the end had me thinking, are the humans going to be killed? If so why didn't the toasters get it over-with and nuke them from space? I think there may be something more sinister in store for our fellow homo-sapiens.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
There was a trailer attached to the episode when I saw it, indicating that the Cylons planned to "love" the humans. Take care of them, be kind to them, and prevent them from making any decisions at all.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well they were created to serve mankind...
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness:
How many lost from the nuke on the Paradise-9? How many ships damaged/destroyed in the explosion?
Not to pick nits but it�s Cloud-9, not Paradise-9.
I was a bit dismayed at first at the "one year later." That�s a big jump to make and it does short-change us on what happened during that time. On the other hand, who wants to watch an entire season of "As New Caprica Turns?" For plot purposes, maybe it�s best to jump ahead like this. Plus, it gets the series into a more "normal" timeframe. Other television shows such as DS9, TNG and B-5 used one season to represent one year, whereas we�ve had two BSG seasons plus one mini-series and only elapsed nine months. Of course, this doesn�t mean that each season from now on will be one year in length.
How did New Caprica get into such a deplorable state after a year? How is all of this Baltar�s fault? What about the Quorum? What are or aren�t they doing that has allowed this? Why has the Quorum allowed Baltar to "fiddle while Rome burns," so to speak.
How is it entirely the president�s fault? He�s the head of the government, but not the only person. Surely there are checks and balances in place to prevent such abuses and neglect.
Or is it that bad? It has only been a year. Colonization is hard, especially when you�re colony is isolated and cut off from any of the factories and supplies from the motherland.
39k citizens. Is this total or just the ones on the planet? How many are in the fleet? How many died in the explosion of Cloud 9? Were other ships involved (it looked like it). How many people have died in the past year on New Caprica?
It appears to me that Gina-Six was intending to signal the Cylons by detonating the nuke. Maybe she was crying because of feelings for Baltar. Maybe she was crying because she new the resurrection ship wasn�t around and, by detonating this nuke, she would die the real death.
So much for the nuke finding its way to the Pegasus. I still expect her to be lost at some point.
Why are the Galactica and Pegasus short staffed? What kind of military operation allows most of the crew to abandon posts like that? Yes, it�s been a year and no Cylons have attacked. I understand that. But it appears to me the abandonment happened a long while before the end of the year. That�s just asking for trouble, especially since the supreme military admiral suspected a Cylon trap.
I suspected a ruse when the Cylons "abandoned" Caprica. How did they do that so fast? Sarbuck was convinced the Cylons abandoned the colonies when she first returned to the Galactica. Did she take time to look around? That�s a mighty big planet to check out. Where did everyone go? Did the Cylons simply vanish or did they just start heading toward their ships and take off? It was too fast to be legit. It had to be a ruse.
Likewise I wonder what happened with Caprica Six and Sharon to make them do this. They aren�t living and let living. This is occupation and control. Oppression.
Tigh should be removed from his post. He�s caused too many major screw-ups. First, his inability to command during Adama�s shooting, resulting in the subsequent riot and massacre on the Gideon, to falsifying election results. The man is a menace and needs to go. Adama is losing credibility in my eyes for allowing such a frack-up to continue in his role. Yes, military personnel are hard to come by, but this guy is a bit much.
Roslin too. She condoned the scam. Baltar may be a snake, but at least he didn�t cheat to win. Roslin may have had the best intentions in mind but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Speaking of snakes� where is Zarek? What has he done this past year? Why isn�t he trying to capitalize on the chaos of New Caprica and get Baltar out of office? Looks like a perfect opportunity for him to take over.
I don�t have any sound on my computer. What has Ron Moore said in his latest PodCasts?
Interesting thoughts according to this post BSG Season 3, According to Ron Moore Looks like we�re in for about three to five episodes centered on New Caprica.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
It's a dream sequence. It's all a dream sequence. Gaius is going to wake up and realize what a terrible mistake he made and the fleet will move on.
It's all a dream sequence. It's all a dream sequence.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Its episodes like these that make me miss the timetravel reset button. I don't think its a dream sequence, no not for this type of show. As for the election, I find Adama's position to be a bit hypocritical. He was saying how democracy's important and the like, but didn't he take an authoritarian stance during the little crisis on Kobol. Many people wanted to go with Roslin to Kobol, but he refused to allow them to travel to the planet to find the map to Earth just because of his personal bias toward religion. Even when Roslin told him about Baltar, he quickly demissed the accussation saying there wasn't enough evidence. During the time of Admiral Cain, Roslin suggested having her killed because of what the crew of the Pegasus said of her previous actions, yet Adama didn't seem to reluctant to do it despite any real proof of Cain's atrocities.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Fortunately at this point the Cylons have no idea that the Chrome Child is still alive. I was kinda hoping it'd be a while before they revisited that storyline, but as soon as they gave a recap of it at the beginning I knew I was outta luck.
Did that 5 say they'd detected the explosion, or residue from same? Because it thus dictates whether they've been biding their time for a year or came in as soon as they found them, and it follows from whether they always meant to honour the truce and there's now been a sea change back, or if it was a ruse all along.
No mention of what happened to Helo (although Battlestar Wiki mentions he was in Galactica's CIC?) or his Sharon.
If people desert to the surface from the military, I doubt Baltar would hand them back or let Adama send people in to arrest them. . .
Stockwell-Cylon(s) didn't mention what part in the Cylon plans the Farms played. Perhaps that's always been a going concern, separate from the war against humanity, and so would dictate the truce be broken in order to seize a large population of human bodies for harvesting/implantation/whatever.
Why is a Leoben looking for Starbuck? There has to be some significance that they'd pay CKR for about one line, they could have had a Doral/5 do the scene. It sems to me that the Leobens we've seen never really sang from the great Cylon hymnbook, they seem very human, almost, although in the case of the Ragnar one that could just be the radiation poisoning. If they're just after her as an escapee of a Farm, it would make more sense to get Rick Worthy back for that (unless he was unavailable; either way, deliberately using Rennie instead just complicates matters).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Did that 5 say they'd detected the explosion, or residue from same?"
Since they said they just happened to be about a light-year away, I took it to mean they detected the radiation expelled in the actual explosion, which would have travelled that far in the intervening year.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Surely they can travel faster than 1 ly/yr?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
5 specifically said they detected the signature from a nuclear explosion -- not the explosion itself.
And Helo was about the only person in Galactica's CIC besides the Admiral. Bill has Helo. Lee has Dualla.
And Gaeta's a chump.
--Jonah
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: 5 specifically said they detected the signature from a nuclear explosion -- not the explosion itself.
What's the difference?
My impression is the Cylons had been looking for the fleet for a year. They were one light year away when they detected the signature of the explosion. It would take the signature of the explosion one year to travel that far. They had to be looking for them, why else be tooling around deep space one light year from that planet/star system?
Maybe Leoben's got a chip on his shoulders from Starbuck interrogating him. Perhaps this is a resurrected version of that particular Cylon. I know they (the Colonials) said "I think we're too far away for you to be resurrected..." but they didn't know about the resurrection ship then. Plus, Sharon was resurrected and they were just as far away, if not farther, when she died.
There is a lot we don't know about the intervening year. Have they kept Sharon locked up all this time? What about Dean Stockwell's character(s)? Are they on Galactica or on the planet? Alive or dead?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Surely they can travel faster than 1 ly/yr?"
Surely photons can and do travel at exactly 1 ly/yr.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I liked my summary. Boo to all these words!
Presumably the Cylons are interested in Kara (Ought we even call her Starbuck anymore? Looks to me like she hasn't had a callsign in awhile.) for reasons related to what they took from her.
Roslin ordered the Brothers Cavell executed as soon as they finished delivering their message.
Last week I was thinking that the only thing that would be as creepy and abusive as the chief beating up Cally was the chief sleeping with Cally. Because, you know, there is a seriously uneven power dynamic there. Or I guess was. Still, I don't know, it is a little weird, and I am fond of close relationships in fiction that aren't romantic, because the romance angle is so common.
Here is the thing: this is awesome because it is like a whole new show now, but it is not awesome because I really liked the old one. I suppose this is the problem of the serial story, though. If you find yourself really liking a certain setting, a certain character dynamic, you may not want it to change, even if part of why you like it is how it grows and changes over time. See certain reactions to Buffy season four, or That One Alias Episode. (Or That Other One.)
Also, re Adama's shifting attitudes about how to deal with the government: to me this played very much like Adama had learned a lesson.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
49,550 at the header. The population for New Caprica CIty: 39,192.
I'm half pissed, and half totally excited by this episode. To say the least, it's ballsy to do the "One Year Later" thing. Which makes me happy if only because it wasn't "One Year Prior". But really I liked the transition with the zoom in/out Baltar's head on the desk.
Holy Crap! Despite Lee's awesome prognostication powers, I can't believe Pegasus is still around post-nuke. I'm very excited about this. I'm also excited that they blew up Cloud-9, and almost like a real show A) adjacent ships got hit/destroyed by debris, and B) it took 1 year for the cylons to see light which had traveled one light year. This would never happen on Star Trek (*cough* Praxis *cough*).
I'm less excited about rumors about EJA leaving the show. I don't want that to happen, and actually I don't really want to hear rumors/spoilers without some warning. There's another thread for those into that sort of thing. (looking at you, Shrump).
So there I had a problem with a bunch of dialogue that was really corny and lacked some of the subtlety I'd sort of come to expect from this show:
quote:Starbuck:"I'm not going back to one of those farms. If our descriminately helpful, and now armed Cylon prisoner is right, then you and I need to make an agreement." Anders:"Ok, what kind of an agreement?" S:"I'm not going back to one of those farms." A:"Yeah, you mentioned that twice already." S:"This is a gun, and we should take turns shooting one another instead of being captured." A:"So, waitaminute, are you saying we do a suicide pact?" S:"Sort of." A:"Where one of us takes a gun, a pistol not unlike this very one, and shoots the other, rather than getting captured?" S:"That's the kind of thing I'm talking about, yes." A:"Man, you really are serious about not wanting to go back to one of those farms, Starbuck. I mean that you'd go to the extreme of killing yourself." A:"Well technically, I wouldn't be killing myself, you'd be killing me." A:"I just meant, you know, that you're serious." S:"Yes. Yes I am. Totally serious. Because I'd rather die than go back to one of those farms. The farms: they were bad." A:"We can dig it. Say, do you have any idea how this episode ran over an hour?" S:"Not a clue. Also, fuck helmets, who needs 'em... Did I mention the thing about the farms?"
Were I Lee Adama, and opened the door to see the girl I might be sort of hung up on (except not) getting trashed with her new mister, I think that I would probably close said door, and come back some other time. Not out of any sort of discretion, necessarily, but there are certain sorts of pain you learn to dodge. Anyway I guess they needed to do that for the tension when she called, but that didn't really wind up anywhere, did it?
'Member how last timesome of us were hoping they were heading somewhere with the Chief and Cally? Disappointed! I mean they were headed somewhere, but in the continuing tradition of relationships that make no sense on this show, Cally now has a bun in the oven. I do heart Simon's marriage of convenience/non-romantic relationship explanation, but given their track record with the capricious (caprican? tnx P), borderline spastic relationships on this show, I'm just guessing this was not a conscious decision on the part of the writers/show-runners.
Is it just me, or did they have AMAZING voter turnout for the election? I had just assumed that there were more non-voting children, or layabouts in the fleet. I was glad that Roslin and Adama made the right moral decision, even if it did ultimately doom humanity.
I get that it would take longer than a year to build anything significant on New Caprica, but it didn't look like there was anything more complicated than a tent city and some lean-tos on the planet. I literally gasped when they showed the landed Colonial One because I thought it was so frakkin' cool, but upon further reflection, I would hope there might be a least a little development, some foundations laid, a couple community structures up. Even with shite leadership and scant materials I can't see a population of 39K putting up with tents for what looked to be a wet and cold year. I think about day 20 where no one was building anything is when I'd start piling up rocks and mud and maybe even cook some bricks.
[ March 12, 2006, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: bX ]
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'm wondering whether the Admiral's moustache is meant to hark back to the Adama: The Garbage Scow Years flashback from the beginning of the season. He had one then. Curious psychology, though - "I've been rendered useless so I'll grow some facial hair."
I just don't buy it. It can't be a dream, the show couldn't survive that revelation. Not even if it's Baltar-Six messing with his head. But all these sweeping changes are going to be really difficult to get past so the show can get back on track - meaning, rag-tag fleet, pursued by Cylons, looking for Earth. That's what the show is about.
It's safe to say that Baltar's days in the RTF are numbered, now - Roslin might get to be President again (but she doesn't need to be) but Gaius won't be VP and no way will Adama let him just sneak back into his role as BSG onboard science geek, not knowing of his Cylon association and after "losing" a nuke. Anders will be toast. Starbuck will get even more bitter.
Gaeta. . . appears to be honest. I don't think his job as Presidential Aide has anything to do with discovering the electoral fraud, after all he went to the Admiral with the evidence not Baltar. More likely he got a job because they'd worked together before on the Cylon Detection project, and Gaeta even went that extra mile to disprove Sheley-Six's accusations.
Is Xena: Journalist Cylon still with the fleet? If so, whatever way she used to get her documentary programme back to Caprica has been closed to her, otherwise she'd have tried to let the Cylons know the location of New Caprica. Unless it was easier at the time because the Cylons knew where the fleet was. Unless she suicided and took the info back in her memory (we don't know whether the one we saw watching the Sharon footage was the same one who'd recorded it).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Were I Lee Adama, and opened the door to see the girl I might be sort of hung up on (except not) getting trashed with her new mister, I think that I would probably close said door, and come back some other time. Not out of any sort of discretion, necessarily, but there are certain sorts of pain you learn to dodge. Anyway I guess they needed to do that for the tension when she called, but that didn't really wind up anywhere, did it?"
I'm pretty sure the implication was that there was some later event which severely cooled the relationship between Apollo and Starbuck. The two of them hadn't been a couple for some time (if they ever really were in the first place), and Lee himself was seeing someone else. I really don't think a brief encounter wherein Kara makes out with her new boyfriend in front of him would be so devastating that, a year later, she would be reluctant to even speak to him.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote:I do heart Simon's marriage of convenience/non-romantic relationship explanation
I'm not sure I can take credit for providing one. It didn't occur to me that they might not have simply fallen in love. It's just that I liked Tyrol's seemingly paternal attitude towards Cally, and now that they are an item it feels weird, to me. (Like that "Our Mrs. Reynolds" cutscene. "Now we have to get married. I'm in the family way.")
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote:I really don't think a brief encounter wherein Kara makes out with her new boyfriend in front of him would be so devastating that, a year later, she would be reluctant to even speak to him.
That was one powerfully awkward moment, though, to be sure.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Oops. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to ruin anything for you. Must have gotten confused which thread I read that rumor in. I read it somewhere on here.
I got the impression some of Lee's bitterness also centered around Kara's derogatory comments duriing that drunken make-out scene about him being with Dee.
No, I don't see how Baltar can get back into the fleet now. Even if they don't know or find out his full involvement with the Cylons, he's still the president that rolls over and surrenders to them on New Caprica. Triator presidnets aren't accepted too much.
Will Xena journalist show her true colors now that her Cylon pals are around? And that nebula may jam outgoing transmissions too.
Posted by Paladin181 (Member # 833) on :
I felt that the two Hero Cylons convinced the others to give the Humans a chance to prove themselves. Stockwellcylon does say that they are giving the humans a "reprive". After the explosion of Cloud-9, which I believe the Cylons saw before their invasion, the Cylons watched the colonists. Givin the Cylons accute sense of morality I doubt they would just be able to forget the humans, so I surmise that they stayed close to them to watch the humans on this new world. Seeing that the humans were less than worthy after that year's reprive they choose to move in and bring about peace. Just me to cents.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Where's Zarek? Presumably he's the VP now, doing his own scheming thing. I think it would be interesting if Zarek were VP and was the one actually keeping New Caprica together and running. He used Baltar to advance his own position, but now that he's actually in a position of authority, he gets saddled with the actual job of the presidency while Baltar fiddles. It would give his character a new, interesting direction to go in, and it would reaffirm how they introduced his character but seemed to have subsequently dropped - namely, the fact that he's either a noble freedom fighter or a vicious terrorist, but we're not really sure. They dropped that ambiguity to his character, and I would love to see it come back.
Also, after Gaeta tells Tigh about the false ballots, as he's leaving the room, there is the barest perciptable trace of an evil smirk on Gaeta. From this, I conclude that Gaeta is a Cylon. You wait and see.
Finally, and this might be awfully juvenile of me, but damnit, part of the reason I tune in each week is to see Apollo and Starbuck kick some ass in some Vipers. With Apollo commanding the Peg and Starbuck baking pies, I don't think we're ever going to see either of them in the cockpit again, and that just sucks.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
First and foremost Zarek is an idealist and very big on the rights of the people and and quite against thos nasty big cogs of government that the Chief was ranting about, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's involved with the worker's strike after Baltar got shot of him. On the other hand there is a certain appeal at seeing a character that once-upon-a-time would have been on that picket line, find himself incharge of breaking a strike. MMMMmmmmm pathos...
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
quote:It's just that I liked Tyrol's seemingly paternal attitude towards Cally, and now that they are an item it feels weird, to me.
She's pregnant, and they seem to work together, but did we get any evidence that they're an item? I mean, it's a reasonable assumption, but I'm curious if I missed something.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Ok,just activate the Omega 13 device 2,425,847 times and reset the entire previous year.
I see Peggy buying it in the Evac attempt in the next season premiere.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Where's Zarek?
Probably printing and selling "Don't blame me, I voted for Roslyn" & "Impeach Baltar NOW" bumper stickers.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Zarek's an opportunist who only wants to advance his own agenda. He's interested in rule or ruin, not what is truly best for the people.
He'll be heading the resistance on New Caprica.
Does Anders know what all the Cylon models look like? Apparently not, since he missed the priest. Wonder how many models he does know/recognizes. He'd recognize Xena.
Does anyone suspect that after the New Caprica arc is finished we'll see everyone back in the RTF and things will be like they were before the arc began. Reset button after all, with maybe a few minor difference.
I hope that doesn't happen.
The article linked to from the other thread asked if we'd see Baltar sitting in the big chair commanding his chrome friends. That'd be an interesting concept. I don't see Baltar being able to return to the Fleet unless he really charms his way in. How did the French populace treat the government that sided with Hitler?
It'd be interesting to see Baltar join the Cylons and pursue the RTF. At least this Baltar would have more of his "needs" taken care of. I swear the original Baltar had to be impotent or something to lose the desire for any contact with any humans.
OK, not that he lost the desire... He just seemed very much at home being the only human on an entire base star.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So we the viewers have a bad view of Baltar because we know what he's done, but why does his surrender to the Cylons mean that he can never be part of the human community again? They're vastly outgunned, what with the entire Colonial military running away. Assuming we agree with the Roslin Doctrine, the president's primary duty is ensuring the long term survival of the species. Everyone knows the Cylons have no compunction against genocide, historically speaking. So what exactly is he supposed to do in that situation?
What I'd like to see, and think we might see, maybe, is an interesting reverse for Baltar. In the past, humans thought Baltar was OK while he was in fact working purely for his own ends. So maybe now he'll find himself genuinely trying (or at least occasionally trying) to keep everyone alive while being despised.
As far as Tyrol and Cally, it's an interesting point, because I was sure there was some mention of something, but in retrospect it may just have been, you know, an inference derived from an intentionally misleading juxtaposition.
Also I'm not sure how "idealistic" Zarek is. Partly because it was never exactly revealed what those ideals were; is/was he a leftist? a nationalist?; and partly because I would expect that, like many people, his fervent Whateverism was the product of youth, since tempered by reality.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: How did the French populace treat the government that sided with Hitler?
quote:Following the Allied invasions of France, P�tain and his ministers were taken to Germany by the German forces where they established a government in exile at Sigmaringen.
In 1945, many members of the Vichy government were arrested and charged with high treason and other crimes. Trials ensued and some, including Laval and Darnand, were executed. P�tain was sentenced to death but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment due to his achievements during World War I. Others fled or went into hiding, such as Jacques de Bernonville who went to Qu�bec, while some were not prosecuted for their crimes until much later, or not at all. In 1993, former Vichy official Ren� Bousquet was murdered while he awaited prosecution in Paris following a 1989 complaint for crimes against humanity; he had been prosecuted after the war, but had been acquitted in 1949. In 1994 former Vichy official Paul Touvier was convicted of crimes against humanity.
The official point of view of the French government is that the Vichy regime was an illegal government distinct from the French Republic, established by traitors under foreign influence. Indeed, Vichy France eschewed the formal name of France ("French Republic") and styled itself the "French State". While the criminal behavior of Vichy France is acknowledged, and some former Vichy officials prosecuted, this point of view denies any responsibility of the French Republic. However, on July 16, 1995, president Jacques Chirac, in a speech, recognized the responsibility of the French State for seconding the "criminal folly of the occupying country".
That was just the Government. Collaborators with the German occupiers, well, the lucky ones got their heads shaved, paraded through the streets, tarred and feathered, that sort of thing. The unlucky ones got dead.
Baltar's behaviour looks to me to be more figurehead-like. He looks sidelined, allowed to languish on Colonial One with a constant stream of lithesome lovelies on tap, while Zarek actually ruins the planet. The kind of revolutionary we assume Zarek was would profess to hold the kind of socialist tendencies that would keep people living in tent cities, when really it's a case of four legs good, Tom Zarek better.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't think Vichy France is quite the right model, though. It depends on what kind of force the Cylons are able to bring to the planet. How much does it cost to build a Centurion, anyway? If we assume they've got lots and lots of them available, then instead of France you've got something, at the risk of putting way too much weight on our goofy action adventure show, more Eastern Front.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: So we the viewers have a bad view of Baltar because we know what he's done, but why does his surrender to the Cylons mean that he can never be part of the human community again? They're vastly outgunned, what with the entire Colonial military running away. Assuming we agree with the Roslin Doctrine, the president's primary duty is ensuring the long term survival of the species. Everyone knows the Cylons have no compunction against genocide, historically speaking. So what exactly is he supposed to do in that situation?
As noted in the subsequent posts, people don't like collaborators. Many of the people who collaborated with (or were solders for) the Nazis claimed they were only doing it because they had no choice, were just following orders, etc... Still, many of the victims/survivors have difficulty buying that.
The episode ended with the Cylons standing in front of Baltar on Colonial One. We don't know or haven't seen the extent of Baltar's subsequent collaborations. I'm just speculating based on what we know about Baltar's past and his personality. He'll do what is best for himself.
If he's seen being all cozy with the Cylons while others (like Zarek, Starbuck, etc...) are formulating a resistance, then it won't look good. The populace aren't liking him already and siding with the Cylons will only make matters worse.
No, he's not done anything yet. But I suspect the beginning of Season 3 will paint a better picture.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And I never said anything to the contrary, but you didn't answer my question.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Sorry. I'll try to explain/answer.
quote:So we the viewers have a bad view of Baltar because we know what he's done, but why does his surrender to the Cylons mean that he can never be part of the human community again?
The direct answer to this question is his surrender should not bar him from the human community.
It's going to be his actions afterword that will do it.
I'm speculating. Predicting. Judging what Baltar will or might do.
I imagine his character will become a puppet for the Cylons. He'll be used in some administrative capacity as a go-between or liasion between humans and Cylons.
He'll enjoy his position and use it to the full to benefit himself.
Maybe he will even go so far as to try to convince the rest of the humans that living under Cylon rule is not a bad thing. The Cylons are our friends. They only want what is best for Humanity.
And, when Humans ultimately triumph over the Cylons and drive them away or successfully flee, Baltar will change hise tune and say "I was just following orders. I didn't mean what I said. I hate the Cylons."
And for this reason he will be barred from the human community. Because humans don't like traitors or collaborators and Baltar will be seen as a collaborator.
quote:So what exactly is he supposed to do in that situation?
Surrender is the only option available to Baltar. It's his actions afterword that will determine his fate.
If he doesn't want to be branded a traitor or collaborator, Baltar should step down as President. He should refuse any office of oversight or go-between. He should not work toward the Cylon goal. He should not promote the Cylon government as the only viable option for the people.
He should do nothing that could appear to be offering aid to the enemy.
He should retire. Passive resistance at most. Step down and fade into the background at the least.
Again, to answer your questions 1. It's not his surrernder that will be his legacy, it's his actions after the surrender. If he works with the Cylons, he will be branded as a traiter and would be shunned by humanity. and 2. Surrender was his only choice at the time. The next decision he should make that will keep him on the side of humanity is to resign his post.
But I don't see that happening.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
On another track:
Dee. The Billy partisans were against her, on account of Apollo. But look, I said, it's been a month between episodes, and the whole world(s) has(have) ended; who among us is immune to the hasty grief-ridden hookup?
But with the attempted election-theft, I am completely off her, despite her pretty new hair. Roslin ultimately decided not to do it, so she is OK. Tigh is already untrustworthy and bad, we know. The new, female Billy, well, she's an unknown quantity. But Dualla. . . I am disappointed with her. I hope Gaeta isn't her friend anymore. (Not that he knows, necessarily.)
Baltar, to hallucinatory Six: "I'm not the man you think I am." (Or was that to Gina? Anyway, he is complicated and I think his actions next season will prove surprising, one way or the other. I am not at all excited about the scenerio that has him joining up with the Cylons and playing the OG Baltar role.)
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