So Moore said that they were making "Razor" in part to tide everyone over in the big gap between the third and fourth seasons. Well, he frakkin' succeeded. If this doesn't rekindle my obsession (not that I wasn't excited before), then I don't know what would.
Favorite moments:
- The shots of Pegasus in the shipyard, while everything blew up around them.
- Shaw meeting Gina when she boarded the battlestar. Creepy and thrilling at the same time. ("After all, we're only human!")
- The first encounter with the old-style raiders: I'm glad they decided to let us hear "By your command" from the old centurions, just once. There was a huge cheer and laughter from the audience when that happened.
My only major plot complaint: Since it was obvious that Gina not only told the Cylons where Pegasus was, but also enabled them to more easily board the ship, why the hell would the Cylons send other Sixes with the boarding party? Was it hubris, assuming that no one would see them and survive the boarding action? That's the only logical explanation, and considering that this boarding action must've happened right around the same time as "33," it makes little sense for them to be so overconfident. Even if it's arguably in-character for said Cylons.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I'd say hubris pretty much covers it, they expected to win and why not? They had just wiped out twenty billion people and about a hundred and eighteen Battlestars. I suppose they thought, worse case scenario she gets found out and executed on site. They didn't count on just how depraved humans can be.
Interesting that the Cylon God is in fact the first hybrid, I wonder if it has some connection with Harvey-Six and Harvey-Baltar? He seamed to believe his existence would continue in some form after his body is destroyed, which may have something to do with the whole final five/D'anna/between life and death in the Kobol opera house thing...or not. The fact that he seamed concerned for the well-being of humanity dose line up with the apparantly differing agendas of the flesh and blood Cylons and the "Angels" that constantly bug Gaius and Caprica-6.
One niggle, though not about the movie exactly; What ever happened to that civilian engineer bloke they pressed into service? I recall he replaced Tyrol during the Pegesus two parter, but after that he seamed to vanish, along with the Peg's original CAG.
Oh yes and I like that the old Centurions spoke, which for one thing distinguishes them from the current models. Unlike the the modern automatons these things are conscious in a way akin to the skinjobs, just trapped in a crude shell.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
I thought it was especially odd sending another Six aboard since she was unarmed and not very closely escorted by Centurions. One explanation could be that she wanted to find her fellow model and free her, but that's not very in character for the fairly unemotional Cylons(aside from the distinctive ones who have names), especially since they must've had a method of resurrecting at that point.
Other little nods I liked was the appearance of the Rising Star from the original series and Starbuck's line near the end after the strike team eject from the Raptor. "Ain't it grand when a plan comes together!" I bet someone's been waiting for years to write that.
Over all a very, very good episode, possibly my favourite of the whole series. One concern could have been that Shaw had virtually no personality, but it made sense since she was practically brainwashed. And from a story point of view, she was only going to be killed off at the end anyway, so as long as she served as a vehicle for the major events in Pegasus's journey, she didn't warrant much building up.
Posted by OverRon (Member # 2036) on :
Yeah watched this a week or so ago, and it was great! Can't wait for the season to start proper. How's the whole writers strike thing going? As I hope to hell it doesn't mess with BSG!
Of all the things I thought about Starbuck, I never saw her being the harbinger or angel of death. It think it was Leobin who was quoting the first hybrid in that "all this has happened before, and will happen again." And how that Starbuck should embrace her destiny. Perhaps his closer spiritual link to the "cylon God," allowed him to see Starbuck as the harbinger of death, and that by getting her to accept her destiny she would help further the Cylon agenda, namely the destruction of mankind.
It strikes me odd though, that the Cylons view the first hybrid as a God, but the other hybrids are basically enslaved.
I loved the "By your command" from the original Centurians, I actualy laughed out loud when I heard it! I hope a few more of those old style Cylons are still out there, as they're just so much cooler than the newer ones.
Here's a thought, the same time the original Cylons were making the skinjobs I presume they created the ressurection process. So the first hybrid might not be as dead as they think, and that he ressurected himself somewhere else.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by OverRon: Yeah watched this a week or so ago, *snip*
You mean you illegally downloaded a bootleg copy. I'm all for... shall we say, "unconventional" forms of media distribution, but to download something that has not even been released yet is despicable, IMO. Just wait and watch with the rest of us. If you don't want to take the time to actually go to the theaters or watch it when it airs, then sucks to be you.
On a lighter note, I completely forgot about that "Ain't it grand when a plan comes together!" line. And of course it had to be Starbuck that said it!
As for Shaw, I strongly disagree with Johnny's comment, that she had no personality. When we first meet her, it's clear even then that she's career military, working her way up the ranks. And the entire point of her character was that we see through her eyes to what happened to the Pegasus under Cain's command. It tells the other side of the story that we saw in the original episodes where the ship first joined the fleet. That she made the same choices that Cain made, but could represent some of the good sides of those choices.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
But... Hannibal was the one who always said "I love it when a plan comes together".
--Jonah
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Annndddd. . . Here we go again. You want this to be an Americans-only Forum? I'm sure it's possible, if they can lock out foreign views of content on the Sci-Fi website, I'm sure Charles can do something similar using IPs, he's quite a clever chap. Yes, Ron downloaded the illegally-leaked screener copy. So did I. So did many, many others, many of whom were prevented from attending a screening in only about a dozen major American cities for quite pertinent geographical reasons. And it's no different to all the other episode which I also downloaded and watched illegally. So I have not been exposed to the advertising provided by the channel's sponsors. I shrug off this karmic heaviness by planning to buy the DVDs one day when they produce a decent box set, and also knowing that I even got my Dad into watching it, about the last person you'd ever expect to watch a space show.
(On the other hand, he called me the other day and asked which to watch first, Stargate SG-1 or Stargate: Atlantis. I did tell him not to bother, since with approximately 15 years of programming to work through, he would probably find it hard to get into, let alone through)
Anyway. In summary: get off your high horse.
So, good ep. Nothing majorly special, no real surprises (but, gee, does that Steve Bacic have some bad luck playing XOs or what?). Shaw's demise was a certainty from the start - no going off to live happily ever after "somewhere else in the fleet" for that one. The whole thing where the Hybrid tells her that Starbuck will doom the human race was silly, it'd be nice to write it off as a ploy to stop her detonating her bomb in favour of getting a message back to Galactica but I suspect it'll turn out to be more than that.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
The show's already set to end, so it's not like downloading can actively hurt it in any significant way.
As for the show itself:
1. The Guardians' old raiders had jump drives, given that they jumped in during the Pegasus rescue recon. Was this an add-on or did the old raiders have FTL even during the war?
2. A science party gone missing in a Raptor . . . I had such a TNG vibe there. Then there was Lee pulling a Sisko by making Shaw the XO . . . not to mention the quasi-assimilation threat of the hybrid.
3. They say the Hybrid was en route to Earth, too, and note that its base-ship-thingy had FTL. Other than for the express purpose of being destroyed, where is the logic in it not running? Leaving the old raiders behind would not have been a problem, what with their FTL.
4. The characterization of Cain was not especially deep.
She decided on-screen things we already knew she had decided (e.g. kill the XO, screw the civilian fleet, et cetera), but we got no further look into her decision other than the added bonus of Gina-betrayal-feelings. The only decision we came to understand more deeply was why she was allowing Gina to be so thoroughly abused, but as a captured Cylon being harshly interrogated this was of little extra value.
Though the thought of Ensign Ro and Six together is hot. I'm just sayin'.
5. Shouldn't the Cylon be way more pissed? I mean, unless I'm mistaken, Pegasus killed God.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
I have what you might call moral ambiguity towards the whole download thing... I freely admit to having downloaded every ep of Galactica, and I also freely admit to having purchased every DVD that's been released. The problem is that sci-fi is still viewed with disdain and even outright hostility in this sunny South Africa, so if we do get anything at all, we get it at least a year late.
I don't have a problem bootlegging, because if I like it, I'll buy it (so the bean-counters will support it's continuity) and if I don't like it, I'll just stop watching it. Everything evens out in the end.
Now that the digression is over...
I loved it... beyond the Pegasus arc, I loved how it tied into the first war: how it "all happened before and will happen again" (though I don't think they mean it that literally)
I loved the idea of renegade Cylons hiding out and carrying on a war that ended decades before... just like those stories you hear about Japanese soldiers growing old in some jungle, continuing to man their posts cos nobody bothered to tell them the war was over.
I liked that Caine also got to shag Six. That was a nice touch.
I liked the inheritance of the knife... which almost certainly dooms Starbuck to die (as the previous 2 owners did)
And of course "by your command" got a good little chuckle from me.
Also, I don't think the first hybrid actually was seen as a god by the Cylons... he was cut off from the Cylon civilisation with no reinforcement and no resupply. I'm thinking the first hybrid was some sort of threat to the new Cylon order and subsequently cut loose. Like OveRon said, the new Hybrids are practically slaves, while the 'first' hybrid seems to have some level of free will. Maybe that was a trait the Cylons didn't want.
Anyway, I'm sure we'll find out in S4. I can't wait.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'm a bit hazy why the proto-Hybrid and his toaster collection decided to light out for parts unknown. I think it's because it was, as Athena puts it, an evolutionary dead-end that was abandoned apart from being used as the basis of the true Hybrid, the base-start controller version. It saw the wrtiing on the wall, and scarpered. Some other, indeterminate method was then used to create the twelve humaniform Cylon models (or rather, the five and then the seven, since indications are that Tigh & Co are different somehow from Six & Co).
We may find there's more to it. Perhaps at the time of the creation of the proro-Hybrid, the prevaling attitude among the Cylons was that the creation of biological/humaniform Cylons was a step backwards, or too far forwards! Maybe there was a fear that, like the Pigs in Animal Farm, the new Cylons would simply replace Humanity, as their masters. Some spoilers out there about the Centurions in season 4 would tend to bear this out.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Annndddd. . . Here we go again. You want this to be an Americans-only Forum? I'm sure it's possible, if they can lock out foreign views of content on the Sci-Fi website, I'm sure Charles can do something similar using IPs, he's quite a clever chap. Yes, Ron downloaded the illegally-leaked screener copy. So did I. So did many, many others, many of whom were prevented from attending a screening in only about a dozen major American cities for quite pertinent geographical reasons. And it's no different to all the other episode which I also downloaded and watched illegally. So I have not been exposed to the advertising provided by the channel's sponsors. I shrug off this karmic heaviness by planning to buy the DVDs one day when they produce a decent box set, and also knowing that I even got my Dad into watching it, about the last person you'd ever expect to watch a space show.
Sorry Dan, but I'm going to have to agree with Lee on this one. Being stranded in the middle of sunny Wiltshire, the chances of seeing this through other means before next March are decidedly slim. So yes, I downloaded a copy and yes I will buy the DVD.
Which as understand it is a good 20 mins longer, so I imagine we'll be getting more insight into Cain and other things not vital to the immediate plot.
As for the Cylon god thing, the impression I was left with is that he ran off by himself and was not cut loose. As for the modern hybrids being slaves, I think it's a continuation of the pattern the Cylons began when they left their entierly mechanical bodies and made them into their attack dogs. It's possible they lived as hybrids themselves for a time before perfecting organic bodies and again, still wanting to be in charge of their civilisation they turned the hybrids into slaves too.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
You guys are right, I completely forgot about this being a US-only release. Sorry!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm Canadian. I did the download, and I will buy this on DVD. And you're a cobbler whore, Dan!
I've seen it, and I have mixed emotions. Certainly on a fanboy level it was REALLY fun to see all the "old" designs in action, but I just found teh whole thing more of a "follow the plotline" thing. They went over everything that Cain and Fisk and the mechanic guy talked about, but as mentioned above they didn't go into any real detail behind motivations beyond what we already knew. The Gina/Cain thing was basically it, and everyone else was going through the motions and not adding anything really new. While I believed Shaw as a character, there was little that really grabbed me about her.
And the whole "Adama on the last day of the war" thing felt pretty tacked on... I thought they should have just made a separate movie concerning the previous war (I'm not really a fan of the "Caprica" thing). Also, was that supposed to be Leoben in the frosted window? Was that why we never really saw his face? I can't find the actor in the credits, but it sure sounded like him...
Mark
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: [QUOTE]Originally posted by OverRon: [qb] As for Shaw, I strongly disagree with Johnny's comment, that she had no personality. When we first meet her, it's clear even then that she's career military, working her way up the ranks. And the entire point of her character was that we see through her eyes to what happened to the Pegasus under Cain's command. It tells the other side of the story that we saw in the original episodes where the ship first joined the fleet. That she made the same choices that Cain made, but could represent some of the good sides of those choices.
I'm not saying she didn't have a role to play. As I said in my post, she was very important narrative-wise in guiding the viewer through all these events we'd heard about and showing how the Pegasus crew had been conditioned. I just don't think she was very engaging as a character. She went from being a bit nervous to begin with, to following orders absolutely. I didn't feel there was any middle ground where she questioned what she was doing at all(except perhaps with the Scylla incident). She did what she'd been instructed to by Cain, not to second guess herself, just do it. That's fine, she was a "razor", it was her purpose. I guess I'm saying that I really don't mind that we'll never see her again.
Posted by OverRon (Member # 2036) on :
Well I was quite suprised by the reaction from MinutiaeMan. Yes I downloaded it, but what other way did I have of seeing this? Like Lee I'm "geographically challenged," so the only chance I have of seeing stuff like this, at a similar time as the Americans on this board, is to download them.
It's not like I'm some pirate bootlegger, sat in a room surrounded by PC's, downloading shows, burning them to DVD, and selling them down the local market. I download them watch them, and when I get the chance I buy the DVD's.
Anyways...
I felt that the Adama being there on his first combat mission, on the last day of war, seemed a little convinient. I'd always assumed that Adama did a lot more during the original war.
As for the DVD having 20 extra minutes? I'm guessing it'll have the Razor Webisodes spliced in somewhere.
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
I thought I read in the credits "young Helena Caine" but we never saw her... so I'm guessing the extra 20 mis will have something to do with her early life... a lost parent to the first war, perhaps?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Maybe it was only his first combat as a Viper pilot, he could have been an enlisted man of some description before receiving a commission as a Viper pilot. Of course, were that the case it should have been on his dossier, which as you can see it wasn't.
Of course it's not unusual for there to be high ranking officers with little or no combat experience in peace time, I don't imagine Cain ever saw much action beyond criminals/smugglers and political terrorists, especially considering she was still a child in the first war.
Anyway, back to Adama; it might be worth bearing in mind that he's not totally green (as he protests in the 1st webisode), as about a week before this they Cylons had boarded the Galactica and killed two thousand personnel, as I recall. Also, our perception of Adama as a "Great Leader" is coloured by the fact he's a main character and possible some of the legacy of Lorne Greene's character brings certain expectations. The fact is though, as an officer he's not that remarkable on paper. Only one combat flight in the 1st Cylon War, demobed after only 3 years as a commissioned officer, re-entered service through family connections when he was in his 40's (not something I imagine endeared him to his fellow officers, possibly partly why he dragged Saul with him) though he managed to work his way up from Major to Commander in only 8 years, his first command of a Battlestar ended in disaster and was quietly shuffled off to the Galactica to retire in obscurity.
[ November 14, 2007, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
"Maybe it was only his first combat as a Viper pilot, he could have been an enlisted man of some description before receiving a commission as a Viper pilot. Of course, were that the case it should have been on his dossier, which as you can see it wasn't."
I wasn't aware Razor was screening in theaters, or I totally would've tried to have gone. Meanwhile, if we're talking about Adama here, it's possible that he was in the Fleet for quite some time but had only recently been transfered to a combat position: he could've been stationed as an instructor, or on a station away from the fighting.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well that was some episode. The attack of on the shipyard was insane, though I'm sorry to have seen all those newly designed Battlestars go kaboom.
About Super Hybrid Guy, I wouldn't say he is the Cylon God, but maybe more of a cult leader who thinks he's God? Also maybe it was my poor vision, but didn't he seem to have a full body and not just an upper torso with wires attached.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I don't think he thinks he's god, I think he said his "children" call him god. Savey?
Again with the Adama thing, it says in his file, first assignment was the Galactica as a Viper pilot. So that's it really, he's a rook that barely got into the action before the Armistice.
Speaking of which, I assume it was no coincidence the ceasefire was agreed just as the first hybrid scarpered.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Speaking of which, I assume it was no coincidence the ceasefire was agreed just as the first hybrid scarpered.
Yeah, I noticed that too. Although considering that a cease-fire would take time (hours, or days, maybe) to actually agree to, even in a rapid-pace negotiation. I don't think that the Cylons would've just phoned up the Colonial President in the middle of the battle to say, "Yeah hi, how's it going? Look, about this war thing, what do you say we call it off?"
My suspicion is that the Cylons recognized the importance of their biological research, and once the Colonials got wind of it, they decided to postpone the war and focus on their research, rather than risk losing their advances in combat. Therefore, the negotiations were probably already ongoing (likely in secret), as the Cylons got wind of the upcoming attack against their research base; and the agreement came down as the battle was being fought.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Actually, in the first "flashback" webisode mention is made of rumours of a peace treaty, so it's not quite out of the blue. I do wonder though what became of the test subjects that were still on the ground. I can only assume they were picked up with Adama, so one wonders why accounts of human experimentation weren't public knowledge 40 years later. Perhaps it ties into the Valkyrie/bulldog mission, or maybe it was misunderstood as being for bio-weapons research...which is not far from the truth. Mind you, there was that robotic arm covered in flesh, so someone must have had some inkling. Most likely the whole thing was classified and buried, or just slipped through the cracks in the aftermath of the war.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, the surviving subjects had no clue what was going on. And though we didn't get a good sense of perspective, I got the impression that the being in the tank that grabbed Adama was the Hybrid himself (we heard his voice, after all). Which would mean that the remaining prisoners were all aboard the basestar when it took off, and were never recovered.
Which means that all Adama had was a wild story with nothing to back it up. No wonder it got buried.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Not so. If you watch the 4th flashback webisode you'll see that entire bit takes place in a small ground based structure, away from the Basestar. Also, nothing really grabs Adama, as the tank is empty. It's a mystery, but we can infer some connection with the hybrid that made him see part of what went on. I think it's meant to imply the Hybrid has a greater consciousness than a normal being. Some of this is implied with the "new" hybrids, but unlike them he's lucid and omniscient and possibly now that his body has been destroyed perhaps his consciousness has evolved into a state of pure thought, like what happened to David Bowman at the end of 2001 and the race that created the TMA-1. Sharon does mention that there are only references to him in the Cylon Database, supporting the idea he went off on his own, possible shortly after coming on-line and slightly more aware than was intended, possibly transcendent. She also says something like some (bet you a tenner it's Leoban) belive he's out there trying to evolve. Perhaps there's more of a connection to him and the Angels/Demons encountered by Baltar, Six & Kara than I first thought. Still the question remains, if he's the Cylon God and is genuinely concerned that Kara is going to lead humanity to it's end, then who was not-Leoban in "Maelstrom" and why take her to Earth, only to send her back to lead the fleet there?
Perhaps Earth won't be the haven they're hoping for.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well if Earth isn't the right place, I hope nothing bad happens to the last of humanity. It would suck if they were all wiped out at the end.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Maybe it's not Earth she's leading them to.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
That's no Earth, its a space station! Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Maybe it's not Earth she's leading them to.
Or maybe it's not Kara who's leading them. (Dunno why that occurred to me.)
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Maybe it's not Earth she's leading them to.
Or maybe it's not Kara who's leading them. (Dunno why that occurred to me.)
A Starbuck Cylon..? It does sound just subversive enough to be a Cylon plan... Interesting.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
RDM has said she's not a Cylon. That's not to say she's human anymore/either. But there's no way she can be the Fynol Cylon.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: RDM has said she's not a Cylon.
Do you have a source for that? Not that I doubt you, it's just something that I hadn't heard, and I've been keeping my eye out for comments like that. The only ones I'd heard were off-limits for the final Cylon were Adama and Roslin. But I think that's great news; I didn't want Starbuck to be a Cylon, it would be too pat of an answer for her return.
quote:That's not to say she's human anymore/either.
Yeah, that's basically what I was implying.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah, maybe there's a third party involved in all this. After all, did we ever find out who sent that beacon that the Cylons found and became ill from?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
We KNOW there's a third (and possibly forth) party involved because of the very presence of Harvey-Six, Harvey-Baltar and Not-Leoban. Theories range from a splinter group of cylons (final five?) to one or more surviving Lord(s) of Kobol or even the thirteenth Tribe themselves.
As for the beacon, that was left by the 13th Tribe and the plaque was just something that was on their ship at the time, the infection of the Cylons seamed to be unintentional. Like the guy who sneezed on one of the Luna probes.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
quote:Originally posted by Lee: RDM has said she's not a Cylon.
Do you have a source for that? Not that I doubt you, it's just something that I hadn't heard, and I've been keeping my eye out for comments like that. The only ones I'd heard were off-limits for the final Cylon were Adama and Roslin. But I think that's great news; I didn't want Starbuck to be a Cylon, it would be too pat of an answer for her return.
I did read it somewhere, I'll try to find out where from again.
[ November 16, 2007, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Lee ]
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: RDM has said she's not a Cylon. That's not to say she's human anymore/either. But there's no way she can be the Fynol Cylon.
Nahhhhh... It's the President Lady!!
or even the flightline 'mech chick!!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee:
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
quote:Originally posted by Lee: RDM has said she's not a Cylon.
Do you have a source for that? Not that I doubt you, it's just something that I hadn't heard, and I've been keeping my eye out for comments like that. The only ones I'd heard were off-limits for the final Cylon were Adama and Roslin. But I think that's great news; I didn't want Starbuck to be a Cylon, it would be too pat of an answer for her return.
I did read it somewhere, I'll try to find out where from again.
I've heard this somewhere as well and I'm sure it was straight from RDM. Perhaps it was on a podcast?
P.S. Did anyone else spot the Aliens reference?
[ November 16, 2007, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Aliens reference, you mean in Razor?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: Nahhhhh... It's the President Lady!!
In one of the podcasts (I'm pretty sure it was the Frak Party round table discussion), Ron Moore specifically pointed out that only two people were considered entirely exempt from being Cylons: and that was Bill Adama and Laura Roslin, because they're the de facto leaders of Humanity. Anyone else was fair game to some extent.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
DUN,DUN,DUN! Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well, as unfortunate as it might be, it's things like this that give the strike a purpose. If it didn't disrupt popular shows then there'd be no pressure on the studios, or whomever their beef is with. I wouldn't worry though, in the long run they'll finish it, there's always the possibility or resuming after the strike with a mini-series or something.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Moore added: �I am ready to put the rest of the story on the table and take the risk that I�ll never be able to tell it, in support of this strike. Like Adama says, you make your choices and then you live with them.�
I would've said, "Sometimes you just have to roll the hard six," myself. Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Considering Sci-Fi's history of having some of its most popular shows canceled I would have said "This has all happened before, and it will all happen again, again, again..."
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Oh, BURN!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So, like, that was pretty good, but maybe not crazy insane great, like the long (long long) wait made me hope for.
re Adama's weird vision after putting his hand into that tank, I thought it might have something to do with those "keyboards" aboard the basestars. (Specifically, the fact that they're filled with some kind of liquid ((like a big soup of neurotransmitters?)) that takes commands from the Cylons and sends information back.) But, like, he was still wearing the gloves on his presumably airtight flightsuit?
I'm not so thrilled with the idea that the old Cylons were destroyed by the new Cylons they created. I mean, I get the thematic significance, but it seems a little played out, to me, and I guess I'm not looking forward to the rumored Centurion revolt, or at least not as much as I could be.
Ron Moore has his own blog here, if you haven't seen it already, started in the wake of the strike, and he does sound a potentially wary note about the next season.
I don't think the guy in the cage was Leoben, since he does peep out around the corner and I didn't see much of a resemblance. Also, as has been mentioned, it looked to me like everyone inside the building should have been OK, assuming the ceiling didn't collapse on them or something. I don't think it is a continuity violation for the Colonials to have some vague inkling of what the Cylons were up to, since, as has also been talked about here before, Adama seemed to catch on to Leoben awfully quickly.
Oh, and I didn't assume that the hybrid Shaw found was God in the omnipotent sense the Cylons usually describe. I took "his children" to mean just the rebel Cylons with him, though he later expands the definition to include everybody, so I don't know. I don't think the Cylons are speaking of any physical entity when they talk about God, though.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I suppose it depends on your definition of God, perhaps in creating the hybrid they made something capable of manifesting a higher conciousness that existed before the body. There has been some mention before that the hybrids have some quasi-mystical connection with the cosmos, but like I said, depends on how you define a God.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
From my blog post on the subject:
It�s sort of like the Star Wars prequel films. It feels unnecessary. We know Anakin Skywalker turned to the Dark Side and became Darth Vader, so why�d we actually have to see it on film? Pretty much just so George Lucas could have Stormtroopers in colorful armor and Jedi against green-screen backgrounds. Meanwhile, the bulk of Razor is events we�d been told about: Pegasus escaping the Yard, Cain executing her XO, the shootings of civilians on military orders. All of these were events referenced in the �Pegasus/Resurrection Ship� arc in BSG�s second season, and seeing them on screen was, to me, gratuitous.
Meanwhile, all of this is framed into what could�ve been an episode of the series proper (and is set in the latter portion of the second season � Lee has just assumed command of Pegasus, and reference is made to the episode Epiphany): a Raptor has disappeared on a research mission, and Admiral Adama transfers his flag to the newer Battlestar to oversee the rescue operation. Major Shaw, who turned into a cold hard bitch under Cain�s command, then found herself peeling potatoes in the mess, leads a rescue operation onto an ancient Cylon basestar with a tie to Admiral Adama�s past, and the old Cylon centurions (from the original series) show up and say �By your command.� In other news, Starbuck moves her �Bitch� act from Kat to Shaw, and it�s pretty much Galactica as usual, with most of the show�s regular cast making guest appearances (Tyrol, Callie, Baltar, Helo, and Dualla are absent).
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well Razor was made so that the Sci-Fi channel could have something decent to release on DVD. To that end, it was successful. If that hadn't been the case, then Razor probably would have never been made. Besides there's more footage than what was shown which was used as a cock tease to get us to buy the DVD.
(BTW Baltar was there in the background when the Old Skewl Raider was hauled up, he doesn't say anything though.)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
And I'll be buying the DVD ('cuz I'm a sucker), but I bet a lot of the additional footage is those sequences with young Adama that were released as "Razor Flashbacks."
My point remains: it wasn't as great as what I expected, and instead of really showing something new about what Pegasus went through after the attack, we just got to "see" what we'd previously heard about ... and, gotta say, kinda wish they'd left that to our imagination, y'know?
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Agree with Sol here, mostly. Pretty good, not crazy good.
Yeah, we didn't see much that wasn't already talked about, but how often have we itched to see something only alluded to on screen? So we got to see spaceships shoot at each other and blow up, I'm always thankful for that.
A friend and I were going to see it in the theaters, but forgot about it until it was too late. Ah well, would've been nice to see Scorpion Fleet Yards twenty feet across.
As for the whole mystery, I'm sure I've said it before but god knows how long ago, that it's plainly obvious that RDM doesn't know how it'll all turn out, so speculating to it now seems rather pointless. Though I hope he's got a clearer picture now than he did right after the miniseries.
And good god could that Shah girl not act. Didn't anybody else find it painful to sit through her performances?
I am somewhat disappointed in the structure of the thing. I was hoping it'd be a straight up telling of Pegasus' journey starting at Scorpion and ending with meeting the Galactica, but alas.
And yes, the old school Cylons were awesome in every capacity. This whole aspect was a very cool thing for the fans - to follow through on an in joke and make it damn cool. I loved watching the old school Cylons go at it in the webisodes, and that love scaled up appropriately on a 52" HDTV. Though I'm torn, part of me thinks the raider interior "By your command" bit was too much, and part of me makes the counterpoint of, "Weeeeeeee! Awesome!"
I think the thematic point of it, buried inside all that plot, was that Adama and Cain were two ends of a spectrum. Cain was willing to sacrifice anybody and anything for the greater good too quickly. Whereas Adama has trouble making those sacrifices sometimes. Cain is hard and tight while Adama is soft and loose, both are extremes, and reality is probably somewhere in the middle.
Which goes back to the discussion of what kind of commander is Adama. I think Reverend has it spot on, and I remember making this argument a long time back. Adama isn't a good commander, and subsequent flashbacks have revealed this. He saw one mission in the war, got back in thanks to nepotism, fucked up his real command, and got handed Galactica to quietly wait out retirement. And looking at the crew, at least at the start of the miniseries draws it out even further; the troublesome pilot that decks superior officers, the fraternizing pilot and enlisted crew chief, and the drunk mess of an XO. The only apparent blemish on this view is Lee's callsign as Apollo, which he presumably got because he was the son of a "god," presumably meaning William Adama. But one flight instructor's ironic sarcasm can explain that.
Also, that Rising Star model was in the Pegasus fleet and therefore not the Rising Star, only the same ship type. But we'll be seeing the Rising Star in season 4, should it ever air.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: I'm not so thrilled with the idea that the old Cylons were destroyed by the new Cylons they created. I mean, I get the thematic significance, but it seems a little played out, to me, and I guess I'm not looking forward to the rumored Centurion revolt, or at least not as much as I could be.
Depends on how you look at it. To a machine conciousness scraping an obsolete model doesn't mean "killing" them because the new skinjobs ARE the old centurions, just in new bodies. The old ones were probably running on non-sentient programming, just like the modern Centurions by the time they were scrapped.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Were there any new Battlestars seen at Skorpion shipyard? Or was it just another Valkyrie-class?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Of the top of my head: Galactica-type battlestar Valkyrie-type battlestar An never before seen design with what I can best describe as a wing-span like an airplane. Of course Pegasus
There may have been more designs, but all the explosions obscured them.
I recall seeing something that looked like a cross between the Valkyrie and the Pegasus, but without the hanger pods, or very small hanger pods.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Oh, wow! A login screen! I must've missed that in the theatrical release... was it something that appeared while Gina was screwing with the Pegasus' computers?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Whoops!Forgot you had to register!
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Catching up a bit from the holidays and actually watching Razor on TV.....
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: One niggle, though not about the movie exactly; What ever happened to that civilian engineer bloke they pressed into service? I recall he replaced Tyrol during the Pegesus two parter, but after that he seamed to vanish, along with the Peg's original CAG.
I'm pretty sure we've seen the Pegasus CAG in a few pilot assemblies since the Pegasus' destruction. He hasn't had any lines, but is just another face now. As for the engineer, I didn't think he replaced Tyrol, just had the same job as him on Pegasus. Also, I thought (I could be wrong) that he was the guy in Razor that they were talking to on that civilian ship.
quote:Originally posted by Bones McCoy: I loved the idea of renegade Cylons hiding out and carrying on a war that ended decades before... just like those stories you hear about Japanese soldiers growing old in some jungle, continuing to man their posts cos nobody bothered to tell them the war was over.
Side note here - I recently read about one such Japanese solider that remained in the jungle of an island up until the mid-70s. They tried frequently to tell him the war was over and/or hunt him down, but he refused to believe anyone but his former commanding officer. They finally tracked the right guy down, and he came out of the jungle willingly.
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Which goes back to the discussion of what kind of commander is Adama. I think Reverend has it spot on, and I remember making this argument a long time back. Adama isn't a good commander, and subsequent flashbacks have revealed this. He saw one mission in the war, got back in thanks to nepotism, fucked up his real command, and got handed Galactica to quietly wait out retirement.
Not to mention that in his one combat flight, he got downed by running headfirst into a Raider. That can't look good on his record. Why the frak wasn't he looking at his DRADIS?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Also, did it seem that that Hoshi guy died when those missiles hit the Pegasus only to pull a Valtane and resurrect in later scenes?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
It did seem to imply that he was dead, but nothing was stated for certain, so he was presumably only stunned, or resting.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Turns out this ship is to Galactica what the Star Trek Phase II Model is to the Refit Enterprise.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
They named it Berzerk?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I know, what a name.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
"They" didn't name it at all. This was something Charles Oines did on his own time (I saw the work-in-progress thread at scifi-meshes.com) based on Eric Chu's concept sketch, and somehow (don't know the details yet) got noticed and allowed them to use his model in the show. According to his own words, they made "minor modifications" before it went to air, which I'm guessing is mostly texture and lighting setups. Charles was the one who named it long before it became BSG canon. Looking at his online portfolio, I'm really not surprised at his choice of name.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Well I liked it.
Yes, we were already told about the events but I happened to like seeing them. One of my complaints about the BSG Mini/Pilot was the fact that we were told more about the destruction of the colonies than we actually saw. Television is a visual medium. Show us, don't tell us.
I didn't notice all the parallels between Cain/Pegasus and Adama + Co. /Galactica and Fleet until I was reading another DB. I really liked the parallels and how the different commanders reacted to the same situations.
Adama and Cain both retreated from the attack on the colonies. Both decided to fight for their survival. Both gave rousing speeches that the crew echoed with "So say we all!"
Roslyn and Lee had to strand several colonist with inoperative (or lacking) FTL drives. They saved who they could and left the rest to die. Cain and the Pegasus stranded several colonists after stripping them of key personnel and FTL drives/parts.
Adama ordered Lee to fire on and destroy the Olympic Carrier and all of its crew because of suspicion they may have been Cylons. Tigh led a marine massacre on the Gideon. Cain's new XO Frisk and Shaw led a marine massacre on a civilian transport.
Adama and Cain were both betrayed by a Cylon sleeper agent posing as one of the crew.
Is Adama a bad leader? Is he too soft? I'll grant you he's made some decisions I disagree with (such as keeping Tigh as XO) but he doesn't really have many options. He's alone in a difficult position with the weight of the entire human civilization on his shoulders. He's had Roslyn at his side to help him carry this burden though.
Even without Roslyn I doubt Adama would have made the same decisions Cain did. Cain was too haughty, too full of herself. Cain placed her own superiority above the lives of everyone else. Cain forgot that she swore an oath to protect and defend the colonies against hostile aggression. Instead she felt that SHE and the Pegasus were the colonies. When they found the Galactica SHE told Adama "Welcome back to the Colonial Fleet" as if he was the one that was lost. Cain refused to follow the orders of the duly elected president of the Colonies, her Commander in Chief.
I used to work for a man that watched BSG. His name was Bill and he kinda liked the fact that Adama was named Bill. Let me tell you, I'd much rather have followed Bill Adama than the Bill I worked for.
Think what you will about Adama and his shortcomings but just remember there is worse out there. A lot worse.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Yes, we were already told about the events but I happened to like seeing them. One of my complaints about the BSG Mini/Pilot was the fact that we were told more about the destruction of the colonies than we actually saw. Television is a visual medium. Show us, don't tell us.
Well the whole story is told in a "you are here" kind of way, hence the shaky cameras, zooms and whatnot. To cut to a sweeping montage of mass destruction would violate the basic concept of the show, to say nothing of being gratuitous. We saw what we needed to see, that is a news report interrupted by a blast wave, nuclear flashes seen from orbit, mushroom clouds on the horizon, refugees running for the hills...what more did you expect?
Anyway, the story isn't about the attack, it's about the people who ran from it, so it's told from their perspective (with the odd exception.) Which is why you won't find a "SPEAK CENTURION!" - "BY YOUR COMMAND IMPERIOUS LEADER." scene anywhere.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Which goes back to the discussion of what kind of commander is Adama. I think Reverend has it spot on, and I remember making this argument a long time back. Adama isn't a good commander, and subsequent flashbacks have revealed this. He saw one mission in the war, got back in thanks to nepotism, fucked up his real command, and got handed Galactica to quietly wait out retirement. And looking at the crew, at least at the start of the miniseries draws it out even further; the troublesome pilot that decks superior officers, the fraternizing pilot and enlisted crew chief, and the drunk mess of an XO. The only apparent blemish on this view is Lee's callsign as Apollo, which he presumably got because he was the son of a "god," presumably meaning William Adama. But one flight instructor's ironic sarcasm can explain that.
I agree, this is a spot-on analysis. And it wildly - but correctly - deviates from the conventional wisdom that was flying around at the time of the "Pegasus/Resurrection Ship" arc, that Adama was a true leader of men, while Cain was obviously a peacetime commander who probably got where she was via cushy staff assignments, and was consequently way out of her depth when faced with a real war.
Instead, there have been a string of revelations that have chipped away at Adama's halo. And as Herb says, there are parallels between the two commanders' actions since the war started, but only at a cursory glance - Adama abandoned the non-FTL ships because he had no choice, he couldn't help them, Cain could have helped those ships but chose not to; Tigh lost control of his men during that massacre, while Cain's men were acting under her orders transmitted via her XO and pet Aussie.
No, I think it's more about Adama and Cain as mirrors of each other. Cain, it transpires, was the successful peaceime commander who got where she was by merit; Adama wasn't as succesful, getting where he was by influence (initially) and, bearing in mind how much longer it took him to reach a senior-but-lower rank than Cain held, maybe only his seniority and years-in-service. But when they found themselves faced with a cataclysmic war, the professional went to pieces, the fuckup pulled things together. Which really brings us down to their respective characters, again. . .
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Adama abandoned the non-FTL ships because he had no choice, he couldn't help them,
Actually, just a quick nit: that was Lee Adama who recommended abandoning the non-FTL ships when the civilian ships were found by the Cylons (and then Roslin who gave the order to carry out his recomendation). This was before the civilian fleet joined Galactica at the Anchorage.
quote:Yes, we were already told about the events but I happened to like seeing them. One of my complaints about the BSG Mini/Pilot was the fact that we were told more about the destruction of the colonies than we actually saw. Television is a visual medium. Show us, don't tell us.
We did see the destruction of the Colonies. We saw shattered Battlestars burning in orbit of Caprica. We say nuclear explosions reaching into the atmosphere. We saw crowds of panicked people fleeing into the countryside. Seeing scenes such as the one in Razor, while fitting for that movie, would have been gratuitous in the BSG miniseries.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Did Cain ever really think she could defeat the Cylons with her one battlestar? I always got the impression that she was aiming to go out with a bang thereby making her dangerous because at some point she would have placed the fleet on a suicide mission.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
I don't think she thought that far.
I think the extent of her thought process was, "How best can we fight them?"
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
For those that loved seeing the interior of the old raider, thank Mojo!
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