Okay, making up for the tech-dry spell we've just come through, we're gonna have two weeks of "what if?" tech spooge to work through. What's to look for?
-EVERYTHING!
Seriously - we're gonna be thinking about this one for ages. The Avenger, the Defiant, and Enterprise herself - in addition to everything getting blown up in the interm. Then there's a Tholian in the crystaline flesh, TOS stuff up the wazoo, and the simple fact that none of this has ANYTHING to do with the series proper. And to top it all off, it's all 100% EVIL!
And don't forget the special opening credits too. Strap yourselves in, this is gonna be a good one!
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
And... finding out if mirror Vulcan females wear belly button rings...
Mmmmm... Vulcan bellies...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
If they screw this up, cancellation will be the least of their worries. If it can be said to be a worry, given it's already happened.
Oh, and, "Tantechlus Field?" Mmm, OK, I'll allow it.
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
Wait...any bits of tech from the Defiant are still applicable, right? The ship is from 'our' Trek universe.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Absolutely.. In addition to the various inconsistencies between this Defiant and the one seen in "The Tholian Web" that we'll be picking apart, one thing to look for would be just how much more powerful she is compared to the NX class.
However, we have to wonder if this is a just comparison. An expansionist Earth fleet would have no qualms with taking Andorian shield technology or Klingon photon torpedoes. If we see clues of this tonight, then we'd have to conclude that the Defiant would wipe the floor with a "stock" NX-class even more than the Mirror Universe counterpart; if not, then we're stuck wondering WHY this Empire didnt' go around getting bigger guns while it could.
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Oh my goodness, is there a lot of stuff in THIS one! Not the best story plot-wise, but so much fan-friendly eye candy (and I'm not just referring to the special uniforms) that it's more than worth it (at least as far as I'm concerned).
-- A live Tholian! How cool is that?
-- A tactically useful Tholian Web! My jaw was left drooping with what I expect was a very wide and silly grin for a full thirty seconds after that popped onto the screen.
-- So Phlox and Reed invented the Agony Booth? Kinda appropriate, seeing how "our" Phlox and Reed have been making progress of their own...
-- That new opening theme was pretty damn cool, too. My favorite moment was the reuse of the footage of that ship flying over Copernicus City on the Moon... and launching torpedoes at the surface! (Very clever, if you ask me.)
-- I loved the touch of that extra "war paint" on the ISS Enterprise's hull. Looks like the CGI artists have been taking some hints from Masao's work, if you ask me.
-- So the mirror-Tholians were the ones to first create a connection between "our" universe and the "mirror" universe, eh? Awesome... it's kinda appropriate how it ties in with "The Tholian Web", and a very cool thought to explain that episode, in a way.
-- I loved the touch of making the mirror-NX-01's warp reactor a lot more dangerous to work next to, kinda like working next to a nuclear reactor. And Tucker's makeup is obviously a subtle homage to "The Menagerie"... very nice thinking there!
-- So the Vulcans in the Mirror Universe were sending an "invasion" to Earth back in 2063? Based on later episodes, I somehow doubt that it's JUST the Humans in the MU that are different, so it certainly seems possible. And my fears based on the spoilers, that First Contact was the initial divergence between the universes, proved groundless. Obviously, since it was Cochrane himself who killed Solkar -- Spock's great-grandfather! -- then the event of First Contact couldn't possibly have been the point of divergence.
Overall, I've gotta say this episode was incredibly cool. Lotsa fun, even if it wasn't the greatest storywise!
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Wouldn't it be great if you could get episodes at a certain time, downloaded straight into a little box that would play them instantly? They could even put advertisements in the middle of it to pay for the service. Wow, wouldn't it be great?!
(Sits tapping fingers impatiently, curses tracker and lack of UPN in the area (not that I'll need it after next month).)
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
Also of particular note was that the mirror Enterprise could use the transporters and fire weapons while cloaked with the Suliban cloaking device.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Here's some things I noticed about the mirror NX-01:
Torpedoes fired from ventral saucer surface when attacking the Tholian scout ship
The NX-01 has tractor beams.
Apparently it still has hull plating since Hoshi made a remark about it failing during the web battle (I guess they haven't conquered Andoria yet?).
They can site-to-site beam since the Tholian was beamed directly to the decom chamber.
There's a vocal interface on the ship's computer.
I'm kinda curious about the state of the Suliban in the mirror universe at this point. When we saw the non-Temporal War-enhanced Suliban in the first season, it struck me they weren't much more technologically advanced than humanity. Here, though, the mirror NX-01 crew is using a Suliban cloaking device. Did the temporal cold war happen in this universe, or were the Suliban on a better technological footing than humanity for some reason?
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I expect that the battle of tau Ceti was against Andorians, explaining the lack of andorian technology. The Terran empire uses a lot of Vulcan Technology and in the regular show, the Vulcans and Andorians are pretty much even, so the Andorians should be able to hold their own against an Earth fleet.
Posted by Captain Serek (Member # 1038) on :
I enjoyed this episode alot. Yuo had the sexiness of 'Mirror, Mirror" and the DS9 mirror universe episodes. You had Vaughn Armstrong back as Forrest, which was a definite treat, and of course, a CGI Defiant, which I am looking forward to seeing in action. The Defiant sets were definitely researched and I am hoping part 2 will bring more, I will nit the unifroms when I see part 2, although I am glad we finally see the actual Defiant patch. I am currently doing an update on the TOS Defiant but will hold off a little until next week. I have to agree this should have been a 2 hour event, but the DVD will be out at the end of the year, so we will see lots of scrren caps to look over and discuss.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I didn't think those were torpedoes they were firing from the ventral surface, but I could be wrong. I thought they were an entirely different weapon (maybe disruptors replacing the.... crap, what was it they had in "Broken Bow"?).
I'm not sure about who they were fighting the war against. Was it the Tholians, Andorians, or the "rebels" they mentioned?
I also loved seeing the Defiant's engines spinning up, as well as actual escape pods on the Enterprise!
I completely agreed with the choice of making both Reed and Mayweather MACOs. Reed is obvious, but I've thought for a long time now that Mayweather is the best butt-kicker of the lot. Anytime we've seen him in a fight, he comes out on top.
Anyone get screencaps of the intro? There were a couple of scenes there I'd like to see again.
*drool* Is it next Friday yet??!!?!!??
B.J.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
One other thing - looks like Porthos put on a little weight! Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
Another question...was that an Art Asylum phaser or a specially built prop? I really couldn't tell.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: I didn't think those were torpedoes they were firing from the ventral surface, but I could be wrong. I thought they were an entirely different weapon (maybe disruptors replacing the.... crap, what was it they had in "Broken Bow"?).
I'm not sure about who they were fighting the war against. Was it the Tholians, Andorians, or the "rebels" they mentioned?
I also loved seeing the Defiant's engines spinning up, as well as actual escape pods on the Enterprise!
I completely agreed with the choice of making both Reed and Mayweather MACOs. Reed is obvious, but I've thought for a long time now that Mayweather is the best butt-kicker of the lot. Anytime we've seen him in a fight, he comes out on top.
Anyone get screencaps of the intro? There were a couple of scenes there I'd like to see again.
*drool* Is it next Friday yet??!!?!!??
B.J.
I think it was firing pulse weapons there. 'Our' NX-02 apparently has pulse phase cannons, so why not?
In other news, Tholians can act as transmitters. Wonder what kind of range they get
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Oh, was Cochrane there in First Contact when the Vulcan ship landed, I can't remember. Either way, the Phoenix must have a good landing system.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So what's this Tholian look like, or is it all done with shadows and smoke? Does the creepy screech-speech make a reappearance?
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
It was a little hard to tell, but to me, the Tholian looked vaguely crab-like. It is entirely crystalline, with four legs and two arms that looked like they ended in pinchers.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And was it in the room with them? That is, what about its unique environmental concerns?
And man, the screeching!
(I am all excited in this thread, you see, because I won't be able to see the episode.)
I'd give it a few more arms for fun, myself, but, oh well.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
The Tholian was in the Decon chamber and the rest of the crew were looking at "it" (Tholians have both male and female characteristics) through the window.
Tholians are comfortable with a temperature of 430 degrees Kelvin, which is 329.15 C or 624.47 F
At one point they lowered the temperature by 50 degrees K and made it uncomfortable for the Tholian. At another 50 degrees the Tholian's body will start to fracture. I'm not sure if this 100 degree drop (in total) started from the initial 430 K or at some other point (they didn't say).
If you drop the temperature enough, Tholians shatter.
"Will you kindly die?"
Posted by FuturamaGuy (Member # 968) on :
Check it out... Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: And was it in the room with them? That is, what about its unique environmental concerns?
And man, the screeching!
The Tholian was held in the decon chamber, with Archer and crew were talking through the window. (Me and my dad both called it simultaneously, when Archer first peeked through the window, seeing nothing, a second before the Tholian popped up from the floor to startle him (and, of course, the audience).) So they used the decon chamber to modify the atmosphere.
So the age-old question is finally answered: that really was Commander Loskene's head, and not some weird helmet. Personally, I find that answer much more satisfying, and totally fitting with the perspective of the Tholians as much more "alien" than your average Trek alien.
And yes, we do get to hear the insect-like screeching again.
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: Oh, was Cochrane there in First Contact when the Vulcan ship landed, I can't remember. Either way, the Phoenix must have a good landing system
I'm afraid I'm going to have to revoke your Trekkie card, sir. Don't you remember the dramatic moment in First Contact (the movie) when Cochrane steps forward to shake the Vulcan's hand?
And seeing the Constitution-class USS Defiant in action (i.e. actual combat) next week? I'm going to need to wear a bib to wipe off the drool! (I'd almost say that it's too bad I won't be able to see the episode until late Saturday, but I won't since the reason I won't see it is because I'll be working for the launch of Tiger next Friday. Never thought I'd again be sorry to miss seeing an ENT episode as it airs...)
quote:"Will you kindly die?"
Oooh, yeah, Phlox really can be nasty when he wants to be. John Billingsley is quote obviously the best actor on the cast (IMO), closely followed by Connor Trinneer.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
- The Tholians looked almost exactly like Reverend drew them a while ago. Nice.
- The MU Tholians rely on enslaved humanoids to do some of their work.
- The (mirror) NX-01 has escape-pods. They seem to be all around the rim of the vessel, behind blowaway hull plates.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
Can anyone get posts of the image scans of the Defiant damaged? (the info trader's pics before he was jammed) I recall seeing some black spots on the forward section of the primary hull but the view was sooooo brief... Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
That view reminded me of the USS Constellation... it looked like it had the same saucer damage.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Audio commentary for "In a Mirror, Darkly".
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
The Defiant was not externally damaged as seen here.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Have screencaps been posted yet?
Also, 0 Kekvin (absolute zero) is -273.15 degrees Celsius. 430 Kelvin is "only" 156.9 degrees Celsius, not 329.
Mark
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
The design of the Constitution Class starship, as seen in TOS, I feel is a classic design. The ship looks as great as it did in 1966. I think simplicitiy is essential to calling anything classic, and this model has it. Beautiful ship.
Posted by QuinnTV (Member # 859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: The Defiant was not externally damaged as seen here.
When Archer showed the stolen footage in the initial briefing, it did appear that the forward saucer was damaged.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: -- So the Vulcans in the Mirror Universe were sending an "invasion" to Earth back in 2063? Based on later episodes, I somehow doubt that it's JUST the Humans in the MU that are different, so it certainly seems possible. And my fears based on the spoilers, that First Contact was the initial divergence between the universes, proved groundless. Obviously, since it was Cochrane himself who killed Solkar -- Spock's great-grandfather! -- then the event of First Contact couldn't possibly have been the point of divergence.
Actually, First Contact does seem to be the point of divergence. There's no trace of an invasion force in the opening scenes of this episode.
But, if we're going to assume that the history of the Terran Empire is at least partially accurate in its claim of an invasion force, then we'd have to believe that Vulcans came in force after their first contact team got shotgunned.
Otherwise, it was mere propaganda.
==========
The only counterargument to this idea is the shot of the Terran Empire's flag being placed on the moon. Coming as it does before the shot of the Phoenix, it may suggest that an evil planetary government was already in place by 2063.
On the other hand:
1. The moon guy was in a 2150's EV suit. 2. The First Contact scenes suggest that WW3 had indeed occurred, which we might not expect if a planetary government capable of moonshots was in place. (Of course, the United Terra government might not've been completely planetary, leading to a WW3 in which the UT won and the others lost.)
In any event, the Vulcan landing would've thus been (a) a bad idea on the Vulcan's part, and (b) the cause of the Terran Empire.
Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
quote:the cause of the Terran Empire.
Imagine a unifying force that rallies the world to action... The aliens are out to get us, we must crush THEM first.
Bingo, you got yourself an empire.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
True enough.
But, the socio-political aspects are mostly being discussed in this thread. My bad for not noticing that sooner.
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
quote:Originally posted by QuinnTV: When Archer showed the stolen footage in the initial briefing, it did appear that the forward saucer was damaged.
It appeared to me an obstruction from the Tholian dock more than physical damage to the ship itself. I can't wait for a replay to scour this episode again!
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
That drydock built into the astroid must have been the concept from Phase II...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
430 Kelvin is 314.3°F, by the way.
And, since the Tholian was stated to have an exoskeleton, I would assume that that was the only part of it that was crystalline. Probably they have other bits on the inside.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I dunno... It looked pretty crystalline when it, er, imploded or whatever it did.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: Oh, was Cochrane there in First Contact when the Vulcan ship landed, I can't remember. Either way, the Phoenix must have a good landing system
I'm afraid I'm going to have to revoke your Trekkie card, sir. Don't you remember the dramatic moment in First Contact (the movie) when Cochrane steps forward to shake the Vulcan's hand?
Its been some time since I saw the movie. Now that I think about it, I do remember.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
"Actually, First Contact does seem to be the point of divergence. There's no trace of an invasion force in the opening scenes of this episode."
Though its certanly not fact, but it is sort of implied that this is what watching Star Trek Enterprise would be like in the mirror universe, so its possible that the differences extend farther back, though they may not be as noticeable
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Holy frack on a stick, was this a fun episode. I haven't anticipated a part two since DS9, and this SO totally beat anything since then. These MU episodes don't HAVE a reset button, so anything can happen with the crew, and has.
-While I can accept that Cochrane was the point of divergence, I'd rather re-state my belief that the MU is fundamentally evil, at least where humans are concerned. Everything else dominoes from here. As for the guy on the moon, given that it's a 2150s suit, I'd be willing to rationalize that as an out-of-place clip of a 2150s guy taking a stroll on his Empire's moon.
-Likewise, I'd say that the Vulcan invasion force was a propaganda thing to help keep hold on the subjugated species.
-The shot of a futuristic city getting blown up in the opening credits is from "Dragon's Teeth". The one with Enterprise fighting a fleet of alien ships is from somewhere in the latter third season, when she takes on a bunch of Xindi ships in an effort to stop the weapon.
-We didn't think they did, but the epaulets HAVE a purpose here. Oddly enough, the Tellarite in the booth and ther two Vulcan stooges didn't have them, while everyone else did.
-The female uniforms were ridiculous as expected, but... Screw it. HOSHI IS HOT.
-Archer has darker hair here, but the REAL follicular change here is that Mayweather has MORE hair. His hairline is significantly more forward than usual, and you can see where it switches from real hair to the appliance in some shots.
-The brig is identical to our NX-01, with two cells. It's a simple matter of the set guys not bothering to change it, but it's still kinda jarring how a recent refit in our universe translates over to theirs as well.
-Are all the weapons on the ready room wall Archer's, or Forrest's? I'm guessing Archer didn't have the time to redecorate. Regardless, Cochrane's famous shotgun is now space dust.
-The "typical" Tholian ship here apparently has but one pilot. It certainly looks like the stock model from its previous appearance, in look and size.
-If you're the one pilot on a Tholian ship, and you have both male and female equipment, and you get really lonely on a deep-space mission..?
-Being an engineer here isn't so hot. Trip (and the unscarred extras) apparently get regular doses of delta radiation from hanging around the core. Not waiting around to design a safe core ould be one reason behind the technological leaps these folks have.
-The Defiant doesn't look damaged in the monitor photo. There's a Tholian webslinger in front of the saucer, and what could be its shadow.
-They engage everything but aux power to cloak Enterprise. This further solidifies the horrid DS9 episode "The Emperor's New Cloak" as part of ANOTHER MU, really.
-The asteroid facility looks decidedly NOT Tholian, having girders, cranes and stuff that don't match established design. It was likely built by their servants, I guess.
-Trip implies that the size of warp coils are related to possible speed. He estimates Defiant can push warp 7 at least.
-The Tholian web, while hardly the most complex effect ever, was the single coolest one all episode. Also, it possibly confirms tha notion that a webslinger works exponentialy faster when you have more than two ships, one of which was damaged. Still, it was odd that energy weapons (and presumably escape pods) penetrated the web while torpedo fire did not. And as the kicker, Enterprise fired while still cloaked.
-I cheered when the Defiant's engines spun up, and so did you. I haven't cheered at a Trek effect since the Klingons came pouring out of the sky to turn the tide in "Sacrifice of Angels".
-Forrest gets the blaze of glory he never got when our version was killed. And I still maintain that by the end of next episode, Archer re-names the Defiant "Enterprise".
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
You'd have thought thay'd at least used a Master Replicas TOS Phaser, but noo - it's an Art Asylum, you can ever see the screw-hole on the side (above the dial on the left) just as Archer picks it up.
I was never a fan of the DS9 MU stories, and I've always preferred the view put forward in "Dark Mirror," that that whole universe was somehow screwed-up in some fundamental way. Or at least Earth was, the Vulcans seemed pretty normal really.
The other day I was driving and listening to the radio, and I heard some news story or other, one of the many fucked-up things that happens these days. And I'd been thinking about this episode coming up, and the thought just popped into my head - WE are the Mirror Universe. Right now I can't see this species ever producing a world like the one we see in Star Trek; Mirror Star Trek though, no problem.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I just saw the episode and all I have to is holy shit.
quote: The other day I was driving and listening to the radio, and I heard some news story or other, one of the many fucked-up things that happens these days. And I'd been thinking about this episode coming up, and the thought just popped into my head - WE are the Mirror Universe. Right now I can't see this species ever producing a world like the one we see in Star Trek; Mirror Star Trek though, no problem.
I agree whole heartedly, I mean if people can easily grow to be racist even today, than hating a different species would be no problem. You know a while back some here comicly suggested that Mirror Universe was the one where George W Bush was re-elected. He may not be far off from the truth...
Anyways, the scene I cheered the most was not so much the activation of the Defiant, but the creation of the Tholian Web. That scene made me giggle with glee.
The thing with Enterprise firing while cloaked may indicate that every alien species that develope cloaking devices don't always develope a carbon copy of the Romulan one. Who's knows, the Suliban cloaking device may not even be as reliable as a Romulan one.
Finally, one thing I noticed about the escape pods is that they looked similar to the time bombs one can set in the video game Star Wars Battlefront. Anyone who has the game knows what I'm talking about.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
It was a new cloaking FX they used, which might indicate different principles of operation.
And for all we know in this Universe, the Suliban and the Empire are both willing accomplices of Future Guy. 8)
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
If the "point of divergence" was Cochrane, why was a Terran Empire flag being planted on the moon in the opening credits?? Yes, I realize it's not really part of the history as far as properly 'plotted canon' goes, but it's still worth noting. And my question from before has been answerd by Lee , it was an Art Asylum phaser prop, not a custom jobbie.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Also, in one shot of Defiant in dock, we see a Tholian ship spin around while still maintaining the same direction of travel. This is pretty rare in Trek...
Mark
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I haven't watched regular TV in almost three years. I just recently after moving out of the barracks, got digital cable. So when IaMD came on, it was the first ST ENT I have watched since the first season. So between that and Friday, all I have watched was TNG. DS9 and VOY. Needless to say that episode ranks among the best of Trek IMO.
What I love was the beginning with Cochrane and the credits. I can't wait to see the old Connie kick some ass next week. It'll be the first time we have seen the Connie fire her weapons (also with updated SPX) since the 60's.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: -They engage everything but aux power to cloak Enterprise. This further solidifies the horrid DS9 episode "The Emperor's New Cloak" as part of ANOTHER MU, really.
I'd much rather just believe that "The Emperor's New Cloak" was nothing more than some mass-hallucination-slash-nightmare and never actually happened. ::shudder::
EDIT: It's also occurred to me that, based on the events of "Shockwave, Part I", it always seemed to me that even the Suliban weren't able to fire when they were cloaked. But who knows...
Re: First Contact and the Vulcan "invasion"...
Sure, I'd agree it's just as likely that the idea of the Vulcans having an army ready to invade Earth was quite probably propaganda... but I still firmly believe that Cochrane's decision to pull a gun on the Vulcans and shoot them can't possibly have been the initial point of divergence between our universe and the mirror universe.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Well, if our universe is the mirror universe, then the point of divergence must be earlier since Trek's late 20th century doesn't match ours.
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
Sure, I'd agree it's just as likely that the idea of the Vulcans having an army ready to invade Earth was quite probably propaganda... but I still firmly believe that Cochrane's decision to pull a gun on the Vulcans and shoot them can't possibly have been the initial point of divergence between our universe and the mirror universe.
Like I mentioned before, the moon landing with a Terran Empire flag seems to imply divergence at the very least a century back from Cochrane's decision to blow away Spock's grandpappy Solkar. As for the possibility of a 'Vulcan Invasion Force', T'Pol certainly did not deny it when Archer brought up the subject...
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Cochrane's shotgunning might not've been the initial point of divergence, but I'd bet it was close.
1. No Lily Sloane . . . where was she? Of course in the non-MU timeline she was over beside the bar with the TNG crew, but that obviously didn't happen here. If something had happened to her, we might have another reason for Cochrane's poor diplomacy.
2. Is any of the damage to the town from the Borg attack visible? If so, then the Borg attack did indeed take place. If not, then it did not occur in this timeline, and hence the point of divergence must've been prior to that point on the timeline.
3. In the book Federation, there's something called the Optimum Movement or something . . . your standard world-domination badguys that Cochrane's warp ship helps defeat in a sort of progress-over-evil sort of thing.
It's possible that the moon landing was executed by a group such as this, a United Terra group which was taking over the post-WW3 world. Instead of the liberation that comes from progress, however, the Cochrane group sold out or was taken over by the United Terra government.
Posted by QuinnTV (Member # 859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: -The Defiant doesn't look damaged in the monitor photo. There's a Tholian webslinger in front of the saucer, and what could be its shadow.
Ah, good. Just saved me from fast-forwarding thru the tape to check. I need to savor it all again at regular speed.
quote: -The female uniforms were ridiculous as expected, but... Screw it. HOSHI IS HOT.
Well said, sir. Well said.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Cochrane may not have been the number one most noble guy on the planet, but, in FC, he didn't seem like the sort of guy who, upon seeing aliens for the first time, would pretend to be friendly, then whip out a shotgun, start murdering them, and take all their stuff. I'd say there had to already be a difference between the two universes prior to that moment.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'd place the point of divergence somewhere near the Big Bang, really. But it seems likelier to me that there never was such a point at all.
The point of the Mirror Universe isn't "what if?", that is, "had we done this or that differently, what would follow?". The point of the Mirror Universe is "what if?", that is, "if we all were fundamentally violent, immoral and lesbian by birth, what would follow?". There is no historical connection between the RU and the MU - and there need not be any historical connection between the various MUs that have been shown in the various episodes, either.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Cochrane may not have been the number one most noble guy on the planet, but, in FC, he didn't seem like the sort of guy who, upon seeing aliens for the first time, would pretend to be friendly, then whip out a shotgun, start murdering them, and take all their stuff. I'd say there had to already be a difference between the two universes prior to that moment.
I've been giving some thought to this myself...
In our universe, Troi tells Cochrane ahead of time that the aliens who would be making contact are "good guys." After sorting everything out, the Vulcans land, Cochrane makes peaceful first contact, time loop complete.
In the mirror universe, either one of two things happen:
1) The Borg attack never happens. Cochrane is never told ahead of time by someone that the Vulcans are peaceful, and thus he concludes that they are attacking. Considering how many sci-fi stories where humans mistake peaceful aliens for invaders, this is not necessarily out of the question.
2) The Borg attack happens. Somebody from the future tells Cochrane that the Vulcans are invaders. Whether or not the Vulcans are actually invading is irrelevant, it simply is what Terran Empire history records. Therefore, when the Vulcans land, Cochrane attacks. Time loop complete.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Have screencaps been posted yet?
Also, 0 Kekvin (absolute zero) is -273.15 degrees Celsius. 430 Kelvin is "only" 156.9 degrees Celsius, not 329.
Mark
I thought my math was off... OOPS. must go fix the error...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: Cochrane may not have been the number one most noble guy on the planet, but, in FC, he didn't seem like the sort of guy who, upon seeing aliens for the first time, would pretend to be friendly, then whip out a shotgun, start murdering them, and take all their stuff.
Then again, perhaps matters diverged when Deanna and Will interrupted Zephram's drinking at the bar? Had they not, Zep would have finished the bottle, suffered brain damage, and gone so bonkers that he'd shoot all the space aliens he'd meet within the next 24 hours.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Maybe on one iteration through the loop someone told him Vulcans don't like his music.
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
About the tholian ship, was there more than one design ini the space-scenes? Also, isn�t there a ship inside the asteroid that doesn�t look like a webslinger? Pointy front, but cargomodule-like rear?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
There is at least one additional ship. The shape is identical, but it looks more like the silver TOS-ship than the new blue/black Tholian. And one of them does indeed tug some containers. If anyone has the ability to make some screencaps, it appears after they've identified the asteroid base on the main screen. There's a short cut to Forrest, followed by an exterior shot of the facility. The tug can be spotted in the lower right of the docking bay, heading out of it.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Defiant in spacedock
Defiant MSD-thingy
Tholian Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
If we go by the Opening Credits it would appear that the Terran Empire existed even before Cochrane went gun-ho. In one scene it shows the Terran Emblem over a large army implying that the Terran Empire may have been a country that eventually took over the world. This is supplemented with scenes of ubertanks, sub battles, and other war scenes that show perhaps WWIII was a fought not so much by various countries against each other but by various countries against the Terran Empire. There's a series of books by S. M. Stirling that deals with a Terrain like Empire that takes over most of the world.
If the MU is indeed different from our universe in that people are more prone to do evi, than a history of earth similar to Stirling's novel is not so far off and would indeed prove that the Terran Empire existed before FC.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Holy shit... is that the Defiant MSD next to T'Pol?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Read the text right above the image. Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The is is too fucking weird, really. I get to see a proper Constitution-class starship in action and a Dalek in the same week.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee:
The other day I was driving and listening to the radio, and I heard some news story or other, one of the many fucked-up things that happens these days. And I'd been thinking about this episode coming up, and the thought just popped into my head - WE are the Mirror Universe. Right now I can't see this species ever producing a world like the one we see in Star Trek; Mirror Star Trek though, no problem.
That's what I've been saying all this time...
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: I expect that the battle of tau Ceti was against Andorians, explaining the lack of andorian technology. The Terran empire uses a lot of Vulcan Technology and in the regular show, the Vulcans and Andorians are pretty much even, so the Andorians should be able to hold their own against an Earth fleet.
$$$mild spoilers for part two$$$
Regarding the Andorians, check this image from the upcoming episode. (and you may notice something else, too...)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
And what could be an Orion woman behind him. Hmm. . .
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I just saw the Defiant at warp from next week's trailer... reminds me of ST: TMP when the refit Enterprise went to warp.
Well, they could always do another 5 year mission with the USS Constitution...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Enterprise crew gather for their weekly Tae-Bo session.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Note that everyone in blue in that picture is from Avenger. I'm guessing this pretty well establishes who kicks the universe's ass next week...
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The only one in blue is the Andorian.
Unless you're talking about the jumpsuits, which I would call purple. But, in that case, you'd be ignoring Sato in the middle there. Whose salute seems a bit out of step...
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Looks to me like she's claping.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
OK, so obviously they're going to be able to rescue at least some of the NX-01 crew from the lifepods. But they (unlike the raiding party who have nothing to wear apart from their spacesuits) will still have their uniforms. So why would they all have to change into spare Defiant uniforms, unless it was to satisfy some bizarre fetish of Archer's? The mere fact that Sato is still in proper uniform indicates that not all do (and, conversely, we have a pic of T'Pol in TOS blue minidress from what looks to be the same scene).
I think what we're seeing here is the remnants of the crew after Archer's little power-play fails, and just before the bay doors get opened and they all get spaced. That's probably totally wrong, but hey. 8)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
As for the clapping, could be an outtake or just after they call cut on the final scene, of the loyal crew doing the Imperial salute. Linda Park is clapping because she can finally get out of that ridiculous outfit.
And really, the midriff-baring uniform IS ridiculous, isn't it? It's a totally nonsensical variation of the proper uniform. Why don't the female MACOs bare their tummies? Because it would be silly. Well, these are too.
Also, over at TripHammered, evay made a list of out-of-evil-character moments by the Mirror people. Forrest was really quite a wussy Evil Imperial Starship Captain. Archer should have been slapped down hard for that confrontation in the corridor. I'm assuming that Sato going back to Archer was actually to keep him occupied while T'Pol sprung Forrest, but it's never made clear.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I guess they figured since in TOS's MU ep the female's uniform was basically the same, midriff bearing and mini skirt. Which is why I'm surprised they didn't make a skirt version of the Enterprise uniforms for Hoshi and T'Pol.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
In regards to the uniform changes, Archer's away team had to switch to the Defiant uniforms since all they had were the EVA suits. Archer's team had T'Pol, Reed, Tucker, Mayweather, and one or two extras. Hoshi and Phlox escaped in escape pods from the Enterprise and so wouldn't need a uniform change after being picked up by either Avenger or Defiant.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The raiding party do NOT have their standard uniforms. They wear grey, form-fitting undersuits, as seen in numerous episodes. So, upon dispensing of the suits, Archer orders everyone in the party change into the Defiant scrubs - which is everyone on the main cast except Hoshi and Phlox. It seems like those two remain in their evil uniforms, while pics show that Archer, Mayweather, T'Pol, Trip and Malcolm all switch over. As for anyone else spotted in TOS livery besides possibly a couple redshirts, well... Maybe the Gorn swiped the laundry first.
[EDIT - Damn you, Dat!!]
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Weren't there a couple of (metaphorical) redshirts along anyway? At least one, anyway - five in the raiding party. . .
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Sorry if it has been mentioned, anyone notice that the ISS Enterprise (Not IX or anything) had an interactive computer system - with a male voice.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Hey, just noticed something: The hull of the ship says "I.S.S. Enterprise". So the MU already uses a prefix? Furthermore, NX-01 is completely gone. I wonder if this Enterprise even is NX-01. We're going to see the NX-09 Friday, and Starfleet just launched NX-02 in our universe. So either it's not NX-01 or it is older than our Enterprise. And why would they build so many ships of that type anyway? IIRC, the NX-01 was nothing more than a testbed for the new warp-5-drive. It makes sense to have an NX-02, but beyond that? Why don't they start refitting the old ships before building so many new NXs? (Of course assuming that they will do the same thing in our universe.)
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
The patches on their shoulders say NX-01.
As for it being a testbed (in the original universe), yes and no. Yes it was the first with a warp 5 drive, but it was always intended as the first of many of that class. I suppose with all the testing they had done since "First Flight", they had confidence in the drive's performance.
B.J.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The Imperial Starfleet apparently hasn't got strict guidelines for safety, and they're a war-economy, meaning they can crank out much more NX-class warships.
As for ISS: this is the same Terran Empire. There won't be a Federation or evil equivalent.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The underside of the ship was left unchanged (so they could use at least SOME stock footage), so we can safely say that NX-01 is still painted on the belly.
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Just looking through the preview for part two. Minor spoiler follows:
Two words: AFT TORPEDOES.
Mark
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
For Defiant or for Avenger? It seems you're talking about Defiant.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Oh yeah... screen caps of the trailer anyone?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
It almost looks like they're fired from the dorsal, or the upper part of the secondary hull. It seems to be too high up to be fired from anywhere near the shuttle hangar alcove.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov: Hey, just noticed something: The hull of the ship says "I.S.S. Enterprise". So the MU already uses a prefix?
I beat you by 5 hours on that one! Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
For all we know, this is a blast from the phasers that in the refit are clearly visible above the hangar. It's just fired in the pulsed "proximity blast" mode familiar from "Balance of Terror"...
We'll have to wait and listen to the dialogue referring to the use of this weapon.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think I mentioned this in another thread, but given that the phasers in "Balance of Terror" acted like torpedoes, I've always wondered if there was some confusion somewhere along the script development stage. Like, they handed some version of the story over to the FX people and it read "The Enterprise shoots futuristic space torpedoes, hoping to catch the Romulan ship within the blast radius," and it was later when they were sitting around thinking "What are we going to call their weapons anyway?" that 'phaser' was introduced and inserted into the script without maybe much thought about what it would look like. And then further down the road the phaser guy writes one with beam weapons and people were like "Dude, I thought phasers were the torpedoes?"
I don't know. When does the word phaser first get applied to the sidearms?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
In "Where no man has gone before". At least, I remember Kirk or Spock recommending they get a "phaser rifle" for use against Mitchell. So that shoots that one down.
I've also wondered about the "phasers" in BOT. I suspect it might have something to do with the whole "submarine warfare" thing going on in that episode. Subs use torpedoes, the Enterprise uses phasers, but lets make the phasers look like torpedoes (and depth charges to a degree). From a language perspective it doesn't make much sense for "phasers" to look like torpedoes. The name is clearly derived from lasers, and people in the 60s had an idea of what a laser should look like (ie, "The Cage"). Having a laser like weapon fire a projectile would have confused their little minds.
When did we first see the Enterprise firing proper phasers and torpedoes? I recall both in "Arena", but I'm not sure if that was before or after "BOT" in production order.
(I also always wondered why the Enterprise fired both red and blue phasers. Did one come before the other, or were they intermixed? I recall the blue ones looking a bit more "expensive".)
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
The ship fires two short phaser beam blasts in "The Corbomite Maneuver", which was of an earlier production code.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: Subs use torpedoes, the Enterprise uses phasers, but lets make the phasers look like torpedoes (and depth charges to a degree).
If we take the analogy to its logical limits, people expecting to see a WWII destroyer-vs-sub fight would not expect the destroyer to fire torpedoes. Submarines would be shelled by guns, or bombed by depth charges, or peppered by hedgehog spreads. And by the story logic, the "destroyer" didn't even know that "submarines" existed prior to the battle, so she shouldn't have either "depth charges" or "hedgehogs" aboard - but she could and would use her cannon.
Some of this may have affected how the episode was written. A weapon like depth charges was needed in the story, but it would make no sense for such a weapon to already be aboard the Enterprise. The second best choice was to use some kind of existing or plausibly introduced new Trek weapon, and "phaser" conflicted less with the WWII analogy than anything containing the recognizable words "torpedo" or "missile" or "rocket" or "bomb" or "mine".
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Forgive my ignorance of treknology, but I thought that phasers were plasma streams more than they were light-energy beams. So where they could not incorporate fuses and guidance systems like torpedoes, I imagine the emitters could produce blobs of charged plasma energy (instead of streams) that would act sort of like contact charges.
All of which is moot since they were called torpedoes in the second episode.
For those who didn't know already, the audio commentary for part two is now available.
[ May 01, 2005, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Balaam Xumucane ]
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The things fired in BoT were 'phasers configured for proximity blast', as per dialogue. I imagine they're basically the same as a single phaser pulse (as described in DS9TM), but it's forcefield is 'designed' to decay after exactly x seconds, releasing the energy and creating a depth charge.
Or something.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The interpretation of phaser beams as "containers" or "firehoses" of some sort is a practical one, since VOY gives us the weird ability to squirt nanoprobes through a phaser beam, and DS9 suggests the Jem'Hadar send poisons across the same way. A proximity blast would then merely mean a controlled puncturing of the "firehose" or "water balloon", allowing the destructive contents to spill out all at once.
The odd hesistancy of our heroes to swing their phaser beams for greater effect could also be explained by the "hose" theory of phasers. A "hose" is first established between emitter and target point, and destruction is then pumped through it. If you try to move the target end of the "hose", it's just like using a water jet cutting machine: sideways movement of the cutting point along target metal surface works just fine, but if you cut a deep hole and stick the hose in there and then try moving it sideways, you get no results since the *hose* doesn't cut metal, only the *jet* at the tip does!
It might indeed be that the "hose" is harmless if you run into it from the side, and that only the endpoint kills. Thus, the lack of safeguards in the "Mind's Eye" phaser rifle test rig is acceptable - even if LaForge had accidentally walked through the beam, he'd have suffered little damage. Another analogy would be a taser with insulated wires: you can save your captain by throwing yourself at the incoming darts, but no longer by throwing yourself at the wires once the darts have already made contact.
Whatever the exact nature of phasers, we've seen them do so many weird things that "proximity blast" shouldn't really raise eyebrows.
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