posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by newark: [QB] I am opposed to the manned space program.
Why?
"First, money. NASA is given $15 billion every year since 1992. This budget doesn't take into account differences in the value of the dollar. So, NASA is receiving less this year than in 1992."
Agreed.
"Second, safety. The Columbia astronauts were dead the minute they left their orbit and headed home. NASA had no backup plan."
A backup plan for what? You're assuming you already know the cause of the accident. Even if it turns out the TPS was the issue, NASA doesn't and probably never will be technologically able to ensure that TPS repair can be done on orbit.
"The shuttle couldn't dock at the station,"
The shuttles were never designed nor equipped to do such cross range and orbital change maneuvers that would be required to do so.
"the astronauts couldn't evacuate the shuttle for lack of space suits,"
Where were they going to evacuate too even if they had suits?
"and they couldn't wait for aid for the next mission isn't planned until March."
Agreed
"Furthermore, NASA control managers were complacent. One sensor fails they figure no worries. Several go out they figure we worry. In 1962, when John Glenn did orbital flight above the Earth, a single sensor failed. NASA moved quickly to abort the flight and determine the best way to get Glenn home."
It's amazing how easy it is to call people complacent from the comfort of a nice armchair. Sensor failure is a common occurence, its a pattern of failures that cause concern. The shuttle has thousands more onboard sensors than the Mercury capsule so that's not a valid comparison. Sensors on the capsules were limited in number and capability so when you had one fail, you pretty much knew something was wrong immediately.
"Third, training and experience. Simply put, both are in short supply. They don't have the people to build a new shuttle. I figure if you don't have the means to build a new shuttle, you don't have the means to repair an older shuttle."
True, the technology and "people" base used to build and develop the shuttles has been whittled away. Could a new shuttle be built, certainly so with enough funding, but at some cost amount, it becomes easier/cheaper/smarter to design build a new vehicle than to utilize a design from the 70's
"Fourth, a pattern of escalating failures. There have been warnings of impending failure to the program over the past years. These have included wiring issues, a broken fuel line at the launch pad, delayed launches related to mechanical issues, and the like."
I doubt any of these "patterns of escalating failures" were contributory to the tragedy and most of the issues you brought up were infrastructure issues, not relative to the orbiter itself.
"Additionally, the facilities are not being maintained."
Agreed, very little money is available for facilities upgrades.
"I have also been reading of mechanical failues on aboard the ISS. This is a new facility and she is already showing signs of serious failures. In the last, the ISS's atmospherics failed and the station was heating up fast. The problem was fixed, but my question is, what will be the next issue and will the crew be able to fix it or will it cost them their lives?"
And how many space stations have we successfully designed built and flown before? You have to crawl before you can walk.
"Fifth, no plans for a second generation shuttle or no money for the X-38. The space plane, designed by the USAF and with NASA assistance, is awaiting budget approval."
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Budgetary restrictions forced a slow down in 2nd generation activities with more emphasis placed on what is called the Orbital Space Plane. The OSP was not designed by the USAF with NASA assistance. In fact AF is behind NASA in forming up requirements for the vehicle and no specific design has been set. X-38 is sadly another dead project (atleast in long term storage)
I'll just kinda stop right there. I agree with you that NASA has been underbudgeted to perform the requirements heaped up on it. But I find it very unnerving to see folks laying blame on others without knowing the whole story.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I'd like to point out there is a reason that computers used by NASA for their probes and spacecraft are so old. They are rigorously tested by NASA for space usage. That take a lot of time.
-------------------- Is it Friday yet?
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
The only thing which newark said which I can agree with is that NASA needs more money to build better, safer, more advanced shuttles.
(And newark? That doesn't make you against manned spaceflight, or even against NASA. It makes you against Congress. And those millions of marching morons who don't think ANY money should be spent on space programs at all.)
The rest? Is poo.
Registered: Mar 1999
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Someone posted this on another web site I frequent. I thought I'd share it here:
This is dedicated to the crew of Apollo I, to the crews of the orbiters Challenger and Columbia. This is dedicated to all people of all nations, past, present, and future, lost while bravely challenging our limits and perceptions.
A Tale of the Sea, the Wind, and the Void. By Andr� �Moose� Maillet
Early in our History, we were limited to where our feet could take us, with whatever goods we could carry on our backs or drag behind us.
We were limited.
Eventually, we learned how to harness the Sea, and built ships which could carry far more goods than we could alone. We learned how to harness the Wind so that ships could be sailed with smaller crews.
And ships were lost, for the Sea is a harsh and fickle mistress.
And crews were lost, for the Wind is just as harsh and fickle a master as is the Sea.
And only a few things had to go wrong to lose a ship with all hands.
Still, we who survived learned from the Sea and from the Wind how to make bigger, faster, stronger and safer ships. And we were better able to harness the Sea. And we were better able to harness the Wind.
And we were limited to the Coast and to where our feet could take us.
Still, we stayed within sight of the Coast, for the Sea is vast.
When there is naught but the Sea, and naught but the Wind around you, it is all too easy to become disoriented. Disoriented, we could run out of supplies. We could be unable to find anchorage if the Wind, in His spite, raised a tempest, and the ships, and the crews, would be lost. Even with a gentle Wind, we could and did miss our landfall, and we starved.
Eventually, we discovered Magnetism and learned how to navigate using the World's magnetic field. We discovered that by measuring the height of certain Stars in the Void, we could determine how far north or south we were. We learned to determine the speed of our ships and the speed of the currents, and we could then determine how far east or west we were.
We learned to navigate, and were able to sail out of sight of the Coast.
Eventually, we found a large, sparsely settled Land. And we came. Your ancestors came. My ancestors came.
We came to build new lives for ourselves and formed great Nations, Cities, and Cultures. Nations that exist yet to this day.
And we never stopped building bigger and better ships, and we never stopped learning better ways to harness the Sea and the Wind.
Still, we lost ships, and crews. For still, we are at the mercy of the Sea. For the Sea is still a harsh and fickle mistress and what She wants, She takes.
We eventually learned how to harness the Wind in a new way. And we took to the Sky. And we were no longer at the mercy of the Sea. And we were no longer limited to the Coast. And we were no longer limited to where our feet could take us.
We took to the Sky and the surface of our World held few secrets from us.
And still, we lost aircraft, and crews. For the Wind is a harsh and fickle master.
And we who survived learned how to make bigger and safer aircraft, and learned to go further, and faster, and carry more goods with us.
And still we lost aircraft, and crews, for the Wind is a harsh and fickle master, and what He wants, He takes.
And we learned how to sail 'neath the Sea and return. And we were no longer at the mercy of the Wind, for we could sink 'neath the tempests and return when the Wind was calm.
And we lost submersibles, and crews, for the Sea is a harsh and fickle mistress.
And we who survived learned how to make bigger and safer submersibles. And we learned to better harness the Sea and carry more goods.
And still we lost submersibles, and crews, for the Sea is a harsh and fickle mistress, and what She wants, She takes.
And we learned to harness the Void, and return. And we were no longer at the mercy of the Sea, and we were no longer at the mercy of the Wind. And we were no longer limited to the World, which held few secrets from us. And we were no longer limited to the Coasts, nor to where our feet could take us.
And we lost spacecraft, and crews, for the Void is a harsh and fickle mistress, and what She wants, She takes.
And we lost spacecraft, and crews, for the Wind is jealous of the Void, and contrary in His spite. And what He wants, He takes.
And we lost spacecraft, and crews.
And we who survive shall learn to build bigger and safer spacecraft to carry more goods and go further, and faster. And we shall learn to better harness the Void, and to soothe the Wind so He will no longer be jealous of the Void.
And we will go to the Stars. Your descendants. My descendants. We will go to the Stars to build new lives for ourselves. And we will form new Nations, new Cities, and new Cultures.
And the Stars will hold few secrets from us.
Still, we will lose spacecraft, and crews, for the Void is a harsh and fickle mistress, and what She wants, She will take.
But we will no longer be limited.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Nothing like a good old fashioned tragedy to open the sluicegates of slipshod writing.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Hey, at least it's not glurge... no mentions of God or kittens or "email this to 10 people"
You could do better, I'm sure.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Congress gives funds to NASA. It is NASA's discretion as to how the funds are dispersed. This is why I am against NASA, not Congress.
I am hearing reports of the shuttle breaking apart above the skies in California. At the Caltech Observatory in the Southland (as southern California is known), the shuttle's descent was videotaped. Just before the shuttle reaches intersection with Venus, as seen from Earth, there is a bright flash and, subsequently, a grayish contrail is seen streaking across the sky.
Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newark: Congress gives funds to NASA. It is NASA's discretion as to how the funds are dispersed. This is why I am against NASA, not Congress.
That's not entirely so. Congress can and does earmark money for specific purposes wihin NASA. A while back it added funding for a Pluto-Kuiper probe, money that NASA had decided not to ask for.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
My mother and I had a discussion. She had grown up in the Golden Age of Space Exploration in the 1960's. In July 1969, my mother witnessed the Apollo Moon landing from her living room tv in Oakland, California.
In her opinion, she sees our country's space program akin to the ocean explorations of the Spaniards and Portuguese. These nations were the first to explore the New World. Eventually, both nations were unable to support their explorations and ended their programs.
I disagreed with her. I see our program as akin to the great Chinese programs of exploration in the early 1400's. They explored the nations around the western Indian Ocean. The government of China made a decision not to fund future exploration programs. The decisions were based on internal and external pressures which required greater attention from the Chinese government. There were no Chinese colonies as I pointed out to my mother. Our nation has left no colonies and has no intention of returning to the Moon or even going to Mars.
I am for a hiatus for the space program. There will be less money for the program as baby boomers enter retirement, as the war on terrorism rages, and as the deficit grows larger.
I have also grown weary of the talk of our nation going to Mars. Even before I was born, there was talk of going there in 1969. This is 33 years of talk. Where are the results of so much talk?
I feel our nation is torn between our desire for space exploration and our apathy for space exploration. The budget reflects this tension I believe. I want our nation to decide if space exploration is vital for our nation, and, if so, provide the funding for a successful and healthy program. Otherwise, cancel the damned program. Space will always be there for us.
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Me, I want the exact opposite. Never stop to think about the necessity of space exploration. Because if you do, you'll never start to move forward again. There *is* no necessity for space exploration, not in the short term. It's all an investment in the far future. And "reasonable" people never invest in the far future.
If the shuttles are too much to manage, let's develop an American space capsule that rides an Atlas V. A craft that's nothing more than a stunt to keep America in space, possibly not even on par with the Souyzes. Let's pretend it is "necessary" for keeping the ISS manned, an endeavor that itself is "necessary" only in the loosest sense.
Let's keep on doing things like the Pathfinder crawler, things that are far more primitive and less ambitious than what was done in the seventies, but serve to keep the space program alive and to give it an aura of importance. Let's make space routinely accessible and accessed before it's made safe or profitable.
posted
We have, unfortunately, grown up in a society based largely on immediate gratification, and when it became apparant that we weren't going to have orbiitng space stations, moon bases, and expeditions to Mars by the '80s, most people's attention drifted. When Shrub too office there was a budget surplus for the first time in decades, which he and his warmongering cronies all-too-quickly pissed away. We want it all, we want it now, and when we don't get it, we get bored and turn on the TV.
I've known we weren't going to get to Mars for decades. I know it's probably going to be a millennium before we start to go to the stars, unless something utterly unexpected occurs. It was over a century between Columbus running into Haiti and the first serious European colony in North America. I'm just amazed the private sector has remained so ambivalent to space exploitation.
Ideally, we would keep the Martian and Jovian expeditions as a background thread, while sending out probes to explore the far planets and the Oort cloud and establishing more of a nearspace presence. Multiple orbiting space habitats -- not a collection of modules like the ISS, but an actual STATION, a la 2001, constructed using materials mined from the moon and near-Earth asteroids. We've piddled around in the shallows long enough without leaving a permanent presence. Even the ISS isn't home for too many for too long. We need someplace people can live and work and call home for their entire lives without suffering deliterious effects. Whether this is through artificial gravity or through centrifugal force or whatever.
There will still be accidents and deaths and the like. Such is the cost of living in this universe. Whether it is from being gored by a mastodon, having a building fall on you in an earthquake, or by having a bulkhead blow out and leave you sucking vacuum, you're just as dead. Trying to find a point to justifiably "hold back" from going too far is futile. You'll end up back at the primordial soup where going out on land was too dangerous because of the ultraviolet rays bombarding this planet...
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: I am for a hiatus for the space program. There will be less money for the program as baby boomers enter retirement, as the war on terrorism rages, and as the deficit grows larger.
We wasted enough time after the Apollo missions were cut short. We, the Baby Boomers, can lose a little weight, live with a little less, and we could get by without this war on Iraq, although Korea is starting to look like it's going to have to be there. and the deficit will grow, no matter what we do.
quote: I have also grown weary of the talk of our nation going to Mars. Even before I was born, there was talk of going there in 1969. This is 33 years of talk. Where are the results of so much talk?
We like to talk things to death in this country, but in the case of Mars, we are just not that good yet. Talk about risky! That's really risky, and we will need a new propulsion system before we can do it with any reasonable hope of the Astronauts getting there and back.
quote: I feel our nation is torn between our desire for space exploration and our apathy for space exploration. The budget reflects this tension I believe. I want our nation to decide if space exploration is vital for our nation, and, if so, provide the funding for a successful and healthy program. Otherwise, cancel the damned program. Space will always be there for us.
Space expolation provides a chance for research. Things that they might not think of otherwise, we research because we need to know about it for the next launch. When you turn on your computer, and it's better then 64K, think of the space program, or the next time you us a calculator, or have a major medical problem, thank the Space Program for all the reseasch that's been done, and all of the technology that has come out of it. One of the major reasons we are as far advanced in technology is because of reseasrch for or during the Space Program.
-------------------- Sparky:: Think! Question Authority, Authoritatively. “Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see.” EMSparks
Shalamar: To save face, keep lower half shut.
Registered: Jun 1999
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