posted
Well, the "Attack Of The Clones"-analysis on sd.net was very good, there are many benefits with analyzing Star Wars like Wong and Saxton does, not just technically and physically but socially and philosophically.
And much food for thought in the new Force-contemplations there, who have gotten renewed energy as a result of the events in SWII.
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
Registered: Aug 1999
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-------------------- Bernd Schneider
Registered: Mar 1999
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
my web persona is exactly identical to real-life, frighteningly enough.
force contemplation is high on my list lately. searching for some spirituality in my life, i find that i believe in a concept that is about halfway between God and collective-subconscious. On many levels, it is identical to the Force. I don't liek the idea of a supreme omniscient deity, (because of all the problems it creates, blah blah blah) but the idea that we are all part of something larger is definitely appealing, and easy to subscribe to, even for a skeptic like me. If you find the right state of mind, of peace and away from your base instincts and use your intellect, you can percieve more than the equation of life gives you.
I just can't knock over battle droids yet.
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: [QB] To return to my argument about the attitudes that are prevalent over there, I'm going to present a perfect example: an excerpt from one of the pieces of fanfic that I mentioned above.
quote:Scene: Battle in Earth orbit.
Grr. Never saw that before.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: I just noticed a parallel between me and George Bush in that we both suddenly bring up with force an idea to fight someone, which could have been done long before. And the UN doesn't really care. Never mind... It's late here...
I agree totally with your perception of Wong, his methods, and his site.
I also recognize the fact that my site, as well as the arguments I engaged in at SD.Net as DarkStar, also fall victim to some of the same sorts of commentary.
It is something I have seriously considered . . . whether to rise above that sort of thing, or scrap with the Warsies on their own terms (if only to correct the horrendous abuses of Trek).
As may be fairly apparent , I scrap with them on their own terms. Some of it is simply for the sake of trying to keep my wits sharp and improve on the quickness of them (especially important when I'm outnumbered 5-10 to 1). Some of it is because, like the crew of the Enterprise-C, I'd hate to miss a good fight. It's also hella-good psychological observation . . . I get to see behaviors and attitudes which people usually hide under the surface.
But still, I do agree at least in part with the principle that Wong ostensibly operates from . . . using the evidence to judge capability. Naturally, this is sci-fi . . . for the most part, visual FX are there to help tell the story. In the case of a human drama like Trek, the visual FX support the sci-fi angle, which is just a cover for the human elements . . . another layer of removal.
But, all the same, there's a certain entertainment value to be gained by looking at things that way, and I've known many a person who was curious what would happen if a Star Destroyer and one of the Enterprises tangled.
(I don't know what you think of his conclusions in regards to battles between starships, but I know I disagree with them. )
I guess what I'm trying to say is that many would agree that Wong's method, as applied and argued by his disciples, is highly questionable. You take the high road in reference to this fact . . . I'm taking a lower road.
And Bernd, I know you've corresponded with him, and have a certain opinion. I also assumed that he was probably a decent guy in real life . . . until I saw this:
"Editor's note: a few months ago, I happened to walk by a woman who was parking in a handicapped parking spot. I stopped, turned around, looked her in the eye, and said "nice place to park, bitch". She got angry at me, and complained that I was swearing in front of her kid. I called her a bitch again, and told her that she was setting a fine example for him by parking there."
posted
^ If she wasn't handicapped, I agree with his response. The woman IS a bitch. Doesn't excuse him calling that in front of her kid, but that doesn't mean she doesn't deserve the title of "bitch."
quote:Originally posted by Snay: The woman IS a bitch. Doesn't excuse him calling that in front of her kid,
Bingo.
According to the rest of the tale, the woman moved. Objective achieved, or so it would seem . . . but which is the better lesson (or "fine example") for the child?
1. Do not park in handicapped spots.
2. If you yell and curse at people, you will be feared and will get what you want.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
Yes. Because obviously he couldn't have just said "excuse me, but I don't think you are handicapped. Couldn't you move to another spot, please?"
Of course, there's every likelyhood that he's bullshitting here anyway. Unless he really is that narcy in real life.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I don't mean to defend that woman parking in a handicapped spot, but dogmatism along with rude behavior in daily life is something that annoys me a lot. Certain people take pleasure in playing the Sheriff.
Darkstar, I don't want to tell you not to go the SD Forum any longer, especially not since you like to fight a battle when you're outnumbered. The problem is that the majority of Trek haters over there don't only have the majority rule, but they also dictate the rules. You would certainly have the moral victory to any unbiased observer (only that no unbiased person could stand reading that for only one minute), but you may become more like the people over there the longer you are trying to disprove them.
-------------------- Bernd Schneider
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:2. If you yell and curse at people, you will be feared and will get what you want.
Wongspeak:
quote: "Who said I lost my temper. I enjoy beating down whiny little hatfuckers such as yourself."
"You are in a position to demand nothing, you whiny little shit. I respect intelligence, and you haven't shown any."
"A childlike, irrational, hopeless response. You'll probably run back to section31.com or whatever shithole you crawled out of and say something like "I tried to make some reasonable points, but they were only interested in insulting me because they're a pack of rabid Warsie dogs", as if no one here has ever made a logical point to refute your stupid-ass claims."
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Darkstar, I don't want to tell you not to go the SD Forum any longer,
That isn't a matter of choice. I was banned after he challenged me to a debate and I suggested it be a rational, flame-free one. He'd already stated his belief that the challenged party set the terms, but he found those terms unacceptable. I tried to use his ego against him and goad him into accepting based on my terms and his own stated beliefs, but he chose to ban me instead over feigned offense at my goading efforts.
We are presently engaged in a debate . . . he chased me down after the ban, trying to backpedal and accept the rational discussion condition. However, he would only do so on the grounds that he got full control of the evidence and its interpretation.
I declined. So, he started debating without me. Unwilling to let my arguments come under attack without defense, I've engaged him. I'll let ya know how it goes.
quote:especially not since you like to fight a battle when you're outnumbered.
No, that's what they say. Never believe what they say about me.
The reason I'm not bothered by being outnumbered is that such a maneuver is the best way to see how my arguments stand. It's a trial by fire . . . and sure, there's a lot of trial by flame, but when I deliver the argument right there in the lion's den, I get to see how it stands up. In the midst of the flames and the fallacies, there's occasionally a decent counter-argument, or a decent remark showing where I need to be more clear.
That's why I posted at Wong's own forum (and the alt.startrek.vs.starwars anti-Trek support group) so often. It wasn't some odd quest for glory or craving for attention. It's the best trial by fire I can think of for my position.
(And actually, I'm probably about to stop posting for a little while, since there's absolutely no focus on the arguments at this point . . . they're all just talking about me and how much they wish I was dead.)
Granted, there's something attractive about going straight into the lion's den and blasting at it from within while hopelessly outnumbered. It's such a popular idea that it figured into three of the Star Wars movies. But that's not the point of why I argue.
quote:You would certainly have the moral victory to any unbiased observer (only that no unbiased person could stand reading that for only one minute)
There are a few people who engage in it or simply read it with the same mind-set that I do. I'm not trying to be the Wong for Trek. That would be disgusting, and I would have to shower frequently to get the mentally-dirty feeling to go away.
What I try to do is provide a fair analysis of both sides. Sure, I have an opinion, and I make it clear, but I don't hide, ignore, or try to rationalize away evidence which doesn't suit me. I try to address it all, and dispel the myths and rumors produced by the horrendous bias others have displayed.
quote:but you may become more like the people over there the longer you are trying to disprove them.
Indeed, there's something to be said for that. I've noticed the behavior of several of the formerly-reasonable ASVS opponents change over the past couple of years, becoming more and more Wong-like. I know I've become more likely to respond in kind when personally attacked or flamed. But, I'd like to think I've maintained the use of reasoning faculties that are evidently so easy to lose in such a debate.
I'm more than happy to receive constructive criticism. Let me know if there's anything you see that appears dastardly or Wongian on my site, either by e-mail or by site feedback: http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html
Thanks!
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
, I scrap with them on their own terms. Some of it is simply for the sake of trying to keep my wits sharp and improve on the quickness of them (especially important when I'm outnumbered 5-10 to 1). Some of it is because, like the crew of the Enterprise-C, I'd hate to miss a good fight. It's also hella-good psychological observation . . . I get to see behaviors and attitudes which people usually hide under the surface.
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