posted
Except that that doesn't work, either. You can't have capitalism and socialism in the same system, or they both just screw each other up. Example: How much does the government pay for your medical costs? Well, either they dictate a price, the seller dictates the price, or the market sets the price. If the government dictates the price, it screws up the economy. Since there's only one buyer, there IS no market. That leaves the seller dictating prices. Either way, someone's gonna get screwed.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
quote:Originally posted by Omega: No, the number one problem is human nature. Communism is fine if there's not a shred of greed in anyone. But try finding THAT group. That LEADS to the problem with the leaders, like...
They used the system to gain themselves more power rather than give power to the citizens.
I'll have to agree with Omega at this point, though we have not seen such evidence in China or Cuba.
And yes, it is difficult (but not necessarily impossible) for Capitalism and Socialism to co-exist, their values and policies somewhat contradict with each other. While Cuba is still the same old rusty little island, China has been opening itself up to the world, bit by bit. Capitalism is beginning to rear its head in that nation (McDonalds, fancy clothes, fancy jewellry etc), though the government is not practising the true aspects of democracy. But it doesn't necessarily mean that Capitalism is the only good social policy out there.
It's anyone's guess when China will be able to shake the curse of Mao Tse Tung. But it will be a long time indeed.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
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quote: "The major problem -- one of the major problems, for there are several -- one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get the people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well known fact that those who want to rule are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone capable of getting made president, should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are the problem." -- Douglas Adams
I got that quickly off the Internet, and had to fix a spelling error, so I don't know if thats the exact quotation...but close enough.
Omega: Uh, even your beloved US has regulated industries and services. Whats with the theoretical tone?
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posted
Now, now, I don't love this government. I believe in loyalty to principles, not to places, things, or (in most cases) people.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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posted
Couldn't there be some sort of hybrid? Couldn't there be some sort of model which made the goal the furthering of humanity/knowledge/science/art/etc.? My problem with capitalism (and I must say that it is a system which has worked remarkably well over the years) is that the primary motivating factor is greed. Any system with this as the primary drive is going to have competition, gentry stratification and as Tora put it 'losers'. There is something frightfully wrong with a system when executives have become so hyper-aggressive that they take to siphoning off millions of dollars from their workers pensions and futures to purchase multiple mansions and extravagant luxuries, and don't feel the slightest twinge of guilt in doing so. There is more than enough wealth that we could all live very comfortable lives (perhaps with only a single home, and without our very own private jetliner). Certainly there must be some way to marry the benefits of a socialist system with the ample merits of a capitalist one. Couldn't we migrate the value of wealth from material possesions and power to accomplishment, prowess, serenity or some other less arbitrary commodity?
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
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posted
One flaw with capitalism is evident everywhere it's used: Executives abuse the power they have.
It would make sense for lower level workers to have a major veto capability over execs after certain requirements are met.
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"You can't have capitalism and socialism in the same system, or they both just screw each other up."
Works just fine in many European countries, dud. Free healthcare, imagine that!
"No, the number one problem is human nature."
No, it's the fact we've let ourselves grow too addicted to acquiring little pieces of paper and metal.
"Communism is fine if there's not a shred of greed in anyone."
So is capitalism, but hey, the Emron fiasco never happened.
Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Free ThoughtCrime America: One flaw with capitalism is evident everywhere it's used: Executives abuse the power they have.
It would make sense for lower level workers to have a major veto capability over execs after certain requirements are met.
Yeah, they call it a union. The only problem is that unions tend to give unskilled service workers a disproportionate amount of power.
i.e. The military simply can't go on strike when an enemy invades, the engineers at the hydro company can't go on strike, etc. Besides, a strike is a rather unprofessional thing to do. Its rather like organised blackmail.
Of course the system fixes itself, because once the unions get salaries and benefits for unskilled jobs up to a certain level, the companies just leave for cheaper foreign destinations, that slowly get more expensive, etc.
Its like a big cynical rendition of "The Circle of Life"
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Tahna Los: It's anyone's guess when China will be able to shake the curse of Mao Tse Tung. But it will be a long time indeed.[/QB]
Because China is obviously going to have to eventually give in and adopt to the goold ol' US way of life.
I'd give you fair odds on China being a superpower within a couple of decades. Unless the US manages to find an excuse to bomb them or something.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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EdipisReks
Ex-Member
posted
well, if they want to be a superpower, they'd better build more than 35 modern warplanes.
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quote:Works just fine in many European countries, dud. Free healthcare, imagine that!
Yeah. Imagine it. By the way, how's that staggeringly vibrant European economy, then?
The real big difference between Capitalism and Communism?
Capitalism: If Company A screws you over, you can always purchase from its competitor, Company B. Declining profits and a desire to profit more then give Company A incentive to change its methods.
Communism: There IS NO Government B.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
Not all companies would ever take the incentive. Drops in profit would mean cuts in quality control and service, all to prop up the bottom line. And still they survive. And still customers buy from them. And even if the consumers lose out, there not a damn that they can do about it.
Flat out communism is not a good thing, that is agreed with. But then, neither is flat out capitalism.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
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posted
My problem with capitalism (and I must say that it is a system which has worked remarkably well over the years) is that the primary motivating factor is greed.
So it takes advantage of human nature (insofar as greed is the correct term to use here), instead of trying to contradict it?
Works just fine in many European countries, dud. Free healthcare, imagine that!
"Free?" Do you have any idea what tax rates they pay to pay for their supposedly free healthcare? And of the QUALITY of that health care?
Couldn't we migrate the value of wealth from material possesions and power to accomplishment, prowess, serenity or some other less arbitrary commodity?
And how do you propose we do this to the majority of the population that doesn't want to change?
No, it's the fact we've let ourselves grow too addicted to acquiring little pieces of paper and metal.
Same as above.
And still customers buy from them.
Only the ones that are willing to buy a substandard product.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: Works just fine in many European countries, dud. Free healthcare, imagine that!
"Free?" Do you have any idea what tax rates they pay to pay for their supposedly free healthcare? And of the QUALITY of that health care?
I know many things, as does Tahna. But I can speak only for myself.
I know that citizens of the European Union aren't exactly threadbare.
I know that the quality of health care in Scandinavia and Canada exceeds that of the United States, as measured by the WHO.
I know that the United States government spends more on health care per capita than Canada does, even though American public money only winds up going to a small and heavily restricted group while Canadian money goes to everyone.
I know that a better health care system has been proven to lead to a more productive economy.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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posted
What are the tax rates, by percentage please, for our fellows in the UK, Ireland and all other places that everyone comes from?
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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