Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
"You mean he formulated an energy policy with the advice of people who knew something about energy!? How DARE he!"
At best, I think that energy policy should be formulated by both sides of the coin (traditional and alternative sources). I also think Jay is saying that this is not the case. That the committee is stacked with oil interests only, and nothing else. It is also easy to make the connection from the interests of the committee to Iraq itself.
I agree that the concept of war for oil is hypothetical. I'm not sure I believe it myself yet. But the issue here is not whether there is a conflict of interest, but the APPEARANCE of conflict (lookie ma, I just made a Law and Order reference). Looking at what we see here, it's hard to say that the war is NOT about oil as Bush and co will say otherwise.
"Because, horror of horrors, private companies organize peoples' skills in an efficient manner, use those skills to make money, and pay those employees for their services!"
Efficient? Just ask Enron. And WorldCom. The way I see it, profits come first before paying their employees for their services. I've heard many companies laying off employees even though they make decent profits. That's efficiency, right?
"it's because the oil was under immediate threat from Hussein, and the civilians in Baghdad aren't."
You already stated that the war against Iraq was to free the citizens from an oppressive regime. So why are you now saying that they are not under "immediate threat" from Hussein?
"Like all those SCUDs they found?"
So I hear that the SCUDs were illegal. Fine. But none had any trace of WMDs in it. I'd like to see them being used before I believe it.
"But I trust them to be who they are, and they don't like North Korea. I thus trust their presence on Kim's ass to keep them in check to some degree."
Shouldn't we trust Iran then? "The Enemy of my enemy is my friend?"
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
At best, I think that energy policy should be formulated by both sides of the coin (traditional and alternative sources).
Fascinating, then, that as I recall, the Bush administration is requiring the conversion to fuel cells by, what, 2012?
Looking at what we see here, it's hard to say that the war is NOT about oil as Bush and co will say otherwise.
Funny, then, that that's exactly what I've been saying. Not hard at all. Bush & co.s reasons as stated are entirely valid, and thus far the only reason anyone would see an appearance of oil interests dominating is if they want to.
Efficient? Just ask Enron. And WorldCom. The way I see it, profits come first before paying their employees for their services. I've heard many companies laying off employees even though they make decent profits. That's efficiency, right?
You mean those companies that are out of business, and thus will not be involved in the reconstruction of Iraq? And companies can be making overall profits and still have unprofitable sectors, you know. So yes, laying off the employees whose skills don't provide services for anyone would be efficient.
You already stated that the war against Iraq was to free the citizens from an oppressive regime. So why are you now saying that they are not under "immediate threat" from Hussein?
Do you grasp the concept of an "immediate threat"? He's not holding a gun to their head, threatening to kill them RIGHT THIS SECOND. Of course, the possibility of his being dead might have something to do with that...
So I hear that the SCUDs were illegal. Fine. But none had any trace of WMDs in it. I'd like to see them being used before I believe it.
So there are no WMDs found or used (yet). He's still in violation of the imposed rules.
Shouldn't we trust Iran then? "The Enemy of my enemy is my friend?"
No, because the enemy of my enemy is still my enemy. Unlike North Korea, Iraq hasn't been actively threatening its neighbors recently (Oh, look! Another difference!), so Iran can't very well apply pressure to help keep it from carrying out those threats. If anything, I'd almost expect Iran to invade themselves. Iraq has oil, after all.
Actually, on that note: why haven't they, anyhow? Or Saudi Arabia, for that matter? Turkey? There's a whole lot of oil down there, and Iraq barely had a military. Was Iraq under UN protection? Or are all the surrounding militaries just as sucky as Iraq's was until three days ago?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
Fascinating, then, that as I recall, the Bush administration is requiring the conversion to fuel cells by, what, 2012?
A little slow. We already have some prototype electricity based vehicles. Some cars being produced are hybrids. We need more. On a side note, I hear that the oil companies are pressuring Bush to delay the proposal to later than 2012.
Funny, then, that that's exactly what I've been saying. Not hard at all. Bush & co.s reasons as stated are entirely valid, and thus far the only reason anyone would see an appearance of oil interests dominating is if they want to.
In the absense of hard data. On both sides, I will concede.
You mean those companies that are out of business, and thus will not be involved in the reconstruction of Iraq? And companies can be making overall profits and still have unprofitable sectors, you know. So yes, laying off the employees whose skills don't provide services for anyone would be efficient.
1) I meant private corporations in general. 2) Enron and WorldCom are examples of companies who are concerned about profits more than their employees. And lookie where it got them. As one viewer on CNN said: "My faith in Corporate America will only be restored once Kenneth Lay is taken away in handcuffs". Mr. Lay is still walking, AFAIK, after possibly triggering one of the biggest corporate bombs in history. 3) There is such thing as reassignment. And even with getting rid of the useless employees afterwards doesn't explain the relative large number of layoffs by same corporations. Again appearance, that the companies are only interested in profits and share prices more for the welfare of its employees.
Do you grasp the concept of an "immediate threat"?
Yes I do. I'll admit, I was mincing words. . But I will also point out that I define the potential loss of life is always an "immediate threat", and should always be given first priority, not oil, in a war designed to "liberate" the people.
Unlike North Korea, Iraq hasn't been actively threatening its neighbors recently (Oh, look! Another difference!), so Iran can't very well apply pressure to help keep it from carrying out those threats.
I've never heard NK threaten China. I do know that they have been threatening South Korea. While China would be trying to stop a confrontation, I don't think China has any real interest in this conflict. Only when the U.S. steps in when they will likely join, but on NK's side. Have you noticed how China almost ALWAYS opposes the U.S. on foreign policy issues?
Actually, on that note: why haven't they, anyhow? Or Saudi Arabia, for that matter? Turkey? There's a whole lot of oil down there, and Iraq barely had a military. Was Iraq under UN protection? Or are all the surrounding militaries just as sucky as Iraq's was until three days ago?
It's called respect of International Law. Something that appears to be absent, nor sanctioned in this invasion.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
oops.
-------------------- "And slowly, you come to realize, it's all as it should be, you can only do so much. If you're game enough, you could place your trust in me. For the love of life, there's a tradeoff, we could lose it all but we'll go down fighting...." - David Sylvian FreeSpace 2, the greatest space sim of all time, now remastered!
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
No, Omega, Cheney clearly didn't folulate energy policy with all the groups the know about energy.
Well, I can't say clearly, because they still haven't let out the list of who was at the meeting have they? Talk about running an open government.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Kosh, thank you, that was my point, gassing ones 'own people' just doesn't seem right.
I was wondering when we'd get in to trouble for trying to stay neutral during WW2. That is, possibly, where we learned our lesson on not trying to placate a fucking lunatic.
SH condems us for starting a war, saying that is is a bad thing, but he's invaded 2 countries, Iran and Kuwait, err, three, because he also sent troops in to Saudi Arabi, the SA Nation Guard and the Marines kicked them out.
SH says that trying to over throw him in a coup would be a cowardly act... Didn't he try to do the same thing in like 1967 and got shot doing it???
Also, someone made a remark here about the US having WsMD, but I don't recall any president gassing Salt Lake City because they were Mormons...
Why are oil companies the leading applicants for getting in to Iraq, Saltah'na, how's your sand box business doing???
Omega, Alpo should get in there, fattening up them dogs is essential....
Pick a number for an invasion by the US, Saddam had ticket number 1, NK has picked a number out of the hat, but they seem to be keeping the number hidden.
Hey, with all the attention focused on Iraq what forces are building in South Korea???
China may keep an eye on NKs nuke programs, since some dogs have turned and bitten the hand that has fed them....
This was fun, what is next....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Efficient? Just ask Enron. And WorldCom. The way I see it, profits come first before paying their employees for their services. I've heard many companies laying off employees even though they make decent profits. That's efficiency, right?
You mean those companies that are out of business, and thus will not be involved in the reconstruction of Iraq? And companies can be making overall profits and still have unprofitable sectors, you know. So yes, laying off the employees whose skills don't provide services for anyone would be efficient.
Uh... by my estimation, successful business does not always equal efficient business. For example, a member of my family has worked as a freelance contractor or as an employee at a company that's contracted by DuPont for the past 17 years. And I can tell you that by the stories I've heard about inefficiency and stupidity in management, it's a miracle that company is still around.
Unfortunately, the great American system does not require the equation "Success = Intelligence."
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
My posts are usually quite short, so I felt like carrying on a wee bit, and, yes, I do feel better.
On the other not, Extreme Stupidity = Failure, as in the place I am at now, the guy lost about $18,000.00 in business during January alone, due to a varity of reasons, but he's the boss, so he knows all. February and, so far, March have lost half as much, but we usually only get half the business as January, so the percentage of loss is the same. If I had $2,000,000.00 in petty cash I'd buy this joint, it could make money with proper management.
Say, if each of you sends me $5,600.00....
Yes, I'll shut up now.....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
. But I will also point out that I define the potential loss of life is always an "immediate threat", and should always be given first priority, not oil, in a war designed to "liberate" the people.
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