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Author Topic: Oh My
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

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Unless I missed something, Rob only said that he agreed with putting some of the animals in zoos, because it might help keep them protected. He said he's not sure about the "kill them to save them" part of the plan. Why is everyone acting like he's shouting "YEAH! BURN ALL THE FUCKING ANIMALS! WOO!"?
Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Doctor Jonas
Active Member
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How nice to find out something like this from my country, here...

quote:
In another "sustainable use" proposal, the Fish and Wildlife Service announced in August a precedent-setting exemption to the Wild Bird Conservation Act, which was signed into law in 1992 by President George H.W. Bush. The policy would allow importation of the blue fronted Amazon parrot from Argentina. The agency is reviewing public comment.

The prized parrots sell for several hundred dollars apiece. Stansell said Argentina, which approached Fish and Wildlife with the proposal, would allow the capture of about 10 nestling parrots from five nests in every 250 acres of parrot habitat.

With export taxes of $40 to $80 per bird, a 250-acre area would generate $400 to $800 per year to support conservation. Stansell conceded that cutting down forest habitat and selling timber would generate far more money for landowners, but said the Argentine government concluded that owners would prefer sustainable returns from selling the birds.

1992. Menem 'let's sell and privatize everything and fill our pockets with some commissions money' presidency. Not surprising. Especially given the deep relationship between Menem with Bush Sr.

quote:
Conservation biologists said the service made poor estimates -- or no estimates -- about how many parrots would be left.

"It's an extraordinarily bad idea," said Jamie Gilardi, director of the World Parrot Trust, a conservation group that has filed opposition to the plan in a letter signed by 88 international biologists. "The quotas are based on poor or inadequate science -- and the sustainability issue is simply not addressed at all."

The Fish and Wildlife Service's parrot proposal cited scientific estimates by Enrique Bucher, a top Argentine parrot biologist, in determining how many birds could be safely captured. But in a telephone interview from the University of Cordoba in Argentina, Bucher said his research actually showed the U.S. proposal was poorly conceived and lacked scientific oversight.

"It's a very romantic idea, but in practice I do not know any positive examples," he said, referring to "sustainable use" plans. "The assumption that local communities will have the organization and altruism to put the money into long-term protection of the environment where you have terrible economic forces pushing for deforestation is a little naive."

We had our share of extincted species. Thanks to some wildlife conservation projects approved in the last decade, we now have many reservoires and national parks beyond human handtouch.

But, just like I told you, money talks between lower (and upper) gov'ment administrative types here... and it doesn't just talk, but makes a speech. I wouldn't be surprised that, if the present government doesn't take any measures, we'd be out of Amazonic blue parrots in a decade or less.

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Styrofoaman
Active Member
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Now, see... if we could handle all cases like this then we'd be well off.

But this is only one example, and in this case it worked.

I don't see it happening this way for all cases, and in some of the cases it's going to end up being "Killing them and shipping the pelts is cheaper than moving the entire animal so we killed them all."

Fuck Bush. Get the lout out of office before he brings ruin on us all.

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Like A Bat Out Of Hell...

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Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528

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Ok. If they captured animals for zoos or preserves, hopefully to breed and continue the species, fine. But I DO NOT see how killing them for trophies and animal parts will help protect the endangered animals in question. Kill even one animal, and thats just one less animal that could potentially find a mate and continue the species. I bet that Monkeys could make better politicians.

I agree that this is revolting.

If aliens come to the planet looking for intelligent life, they better not land in the White House...

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Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I cannot accept.
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.

Remember when your parents told you it's dangerous to play in traffic?

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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From a lette to the Editor in the Washington Post.

quote:
I was disappointed to read about the Bush administration's policy shifts on threatened species ["U.S. May Expand Access to Endangered Species," news story, Oct. 11].

I conducted field research for Kenneth Stansell and others at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in 1996 that refuted the very arguments he and others in the administration are using to justify the shift.

Commercial use of wildlife, whether through captive breeding or controlled "harvesting," does not pay for the species' conservation. Even when government sets a good policy and fair management rules and regulations are in place and reasonably enforced, private businesses often evade the scientific and management protocols with serious, sometimes irreversible consequences to the species. Local people, especially those living in poverty, rarely benefit, for reasons related not to wildlife biology but to politics.

This is true in both developing and developed countries. And make no mistake: Trading and trafficking in wildlife is serious business, which may help explain the Safari Club International's enormous political contributions ($274,000) in the 2000 election cycle.

I studied the effect of the commercial use in El Salvador of green iguanas, a protected species at the time. I interviewed local people, the iguana ranch owners, the ranch employees, the government officials responsible for enforcing the regulations and wildlife biologists and conservationists in El Salvador and in the United States.

My findings were straightforward: The local communities received no tangible benefits from the sustainable production and trade of green iguanas in El Salvador. In some cases, they were worse off, because the iguana ranchers had bought the land that tenant farmers had been renting to graze their cattle, reducing the security of the tenant farmers' livelihood.

Before making a decision on whether to allow for the intensified commercial use of threatened species, it is critical to answer the following questions: Who benefits? How much do they benefit? How do they benefit?

Failure to do so not only will endanger the species but also will hurt the local people who were supposed to benefit.

AARON M. CHASSY

Arlington



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Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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Yes, Rob did say that the zoos would be okay, which I agree, but Bush Admin has said more, with which I don't agree.....

The killing of breeding animals doesn't seem like it is going to help sustain the population....

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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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bX
Stopped. Smelling flowers.
Member # 419

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I'm somewhat less convinced that the zoos are a great idea. While I do think that there are some exceptional facilities which probably would be able to help to some extent, by and large the zoos have become extremely underfunded. In these tight economic times, zoos and wildlife preserves aren't exactly a budget priority for most areas. These captive breeding programs are very expensive. I worry that there is an assumption that by incorporating a species into a zoo program, the problem is then 'taken care of'. Precisely because it's so expensive to do this sort of thing, the tendency would be to ignore the remaining wild animals (who are living VASTLY different lives than those in captivity) and perhaps more signifigantly ignoring the problems which lead to their being placed on the endangered species list in the first place. And then there is, as Jay capably points out, the issue of capturing not for zoos/preserves, but for circuses and pets.

I'm sorry if Rob felt attacked, but to deign to support this new interpretation, even in part, becomes a slippery slope. This is permanently dangerous policy with profoundly serious long-term consequences. It needs careful scrutiny and measured debate. With all the rest that's happening in the world, now is NOT the time to be disturbing this shit. It reeks of sneaking something through while attention is focused elswhere. I still see NO benefits to the general good in this change in policy. I've written to both my Senators expressing this concern, but they've got a lot on their plates right now.

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"Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
Member # 19

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quote:
Saving Endangered Wildlife by Killing It?

At ceremonies two years ago in honor of Earth Day, President George Bush stood beneath a giant sequoia and called for "a new environmentalism for the 21st century." As fleshed out by his administration, this new environmentalism prefers market-based incentives to government regulation and elevates property rights over wilderness and species protection. It is, in many ways, simply the environmental corollary to the administration's broader deregulatory views.

Peter Huber, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is one of the brains behind the administration's approach to the environment. His influential political tract, Hard Green: Saving the Environment from the Environmentalists, was published in 2000 as a conservative counterweight to Al Gore's Earth in the Balance.

In Hard Green, Huber lauds Teddy Roosevelt as the ultimate environmentalist role model. Roosevelt, famous as a hunter and safari enthusiast, once killed several hundred wild animals - including a reported nine lions, five elephants, thirteen rhinos and seven hippos - during a single extended expedition in Africa. As Huber puts it, approvingly: "He loved wild animals. He particularly loved to shoot them."

Roosevelt's 'love them and kill them' approach is the obvious antecedent of a new endangered species policy that the Bush Administration announced this summer. As set forth in a draft document whose comment period expires on Friday, the Administration plans to begin allowing hunters, zoos, circuses and others to kill, capture, and import wildlife facing extinction in other countries.

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To "Enhance the Propagation or Survival" of the Species

In the past, officials of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have interpreted the law to bar the commercial importation of endangered plants and animals to the United States. The clear reasoning behind this refusal was that U.S. demand would further deplete these species' already limited numbers.

The current administration, however, argues that the burgeoning U.S. market for sporting trophies, hides, pelts and other animal parts, as well as the demand for exotic pets and circus animals, could create positive conservation incentives. Section 10(1)(A) of the Endangered Species Act allows the Fish and Wildlife Service to grant exemptions to the law's ban on endangered species imports in order to "enhance the propagation or survival of the affected species." Invoking this section, the administration proposes to permit the importation of wildlife from countries with effective conservation programs.

Imports would be allowed, specifically, in cases where the country has a conservation plan by which the number of wildlife that are killed or captured is offset by increases in the target population. The overall net impact of such a plan should, theoretically, be positive.

The administration's draft policy is crowded with the language of incentive and sustainable use. Its promised benefits are speculative and long-term, however, while its risks are direct and immediate.

By opening up the American market to endangered species from abroad, the proposal creates direct incentives for the depletion of existing wildlife stocks. In contrast, the promised overall growth in endangered species populations will result only in those countries where the conservation plan is well thought out, where the authorities are genuinely interested in implementing it, and where the circumstances are such that implementation is actually possible. Given the corruption, disorganization, and competing priorities in many countries, it is doubtful that the proposed influx of American cash will have the desired effect.

In the end, what the change does is allow Fish and Wildlife Service officials to gamble with the future of foreign wildlife stocks. It substitutes a speculative weighing of incentives for a bright line rule.

----

The Larger Context

It is worth remembering, in closing, that the recent proposals are part of a larger attack on the Endangered Species Act. With the administration's support, Republicans in Congress have been seeking to amend the law in order to weaken it. To achieve the same goal though other means, the administration has also consistently underfunded the endangered species program, creating a work backlog that undermines the Fish and Wildlife Service's ability to enforce the law's requirements.

Several of the administration's federal court nominees, such as Alabama Attorney General William Pryor and Texas Supreme Court Justice Priscilla Owen, have a history of hostility to the Endangered Species Act. Interior Secretary Gale Norton, the head of the department charged with enforcing the law, once filed a legal brief with the U.S. Supreme Court urging significant cuts in endangered species protections. Her assistant secretary for water and science is a former mining lawyer who once called for the abolition of the Endangered Species Act.

Joanne Mariner, FindLaw

Mmmm, market-based incentives.

--------------------
Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.
~ohn Adams

Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine.
~Brad DeLong

You're just babbling incoherently.
~C. Montgomery Burns

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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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I am wondering what ever happened to summarizing articles and having links to them.... makes for easier reading after driving all night....

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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
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It went out of fashion.
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Ritten
A Terrible & Sick leek
Member # 417

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That is okay then, as long as it isn't extinct....

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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
"Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers
A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

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quote:
Originally posted by TSN:
Unless I missed something, Rob only said that he agreed with putting some of the animals in zoos, because it might help keep them protected. He said he's not sure about the "kill them to save them" part of the plan. Why is everyone acting like he's shouting "YEAH! BURN ALL THE FUCKING ANIMALS! WOO!"?

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to stupidity.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
Member # 393

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Stupidity leads to defending your chosen political party's policies against any attack from anyone demonstrated to be anything less than 100% committed to that party, no matter how valid the attack might be?

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

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Stupidity leads to thinking that that's what I was doing.

It should be noted that this was tried and did help at least one species that I know of- the saltwater crocodile in Australia. When it was moved from Appendix I to II in 1985, trade in crocodile merchandise was allowed and eventually the crocodile actually recovered from low numbers. Ranches which raised them were also research facilities. Eggs were collected from the wild as well, with the landowners receiving compensation for the eggs found on their property. Potential for profit encouraged people to be interested in saving the crocodile.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Veers
You first
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So, please clarify--are you against this policy? (except maybe for the "putting animals in zoos" part).

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Meh

Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
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