quote:Originally posted by Cartman: Nah, the abuse that went on at A-G wasn't really that bad, was it? And those few prisoners that were tortured, pffft, compared to what Saddam was capable of, they were LUCKY to be at the mercy of American soldiers, weren't they?
Considering that many of them, specifically those captured in action against US forces and not wearing any standardized uniform, the US would be well within their rights under the Geneva conventions to shoot on sight... perhaps so.
So, just to be clear, you're saying that it was okay to torture them, because, hey, at least the troops didn't shoot them on sight?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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quote: Nah, the abuse that went on at A-G wasn't really that bad, was it? And those few prisoners that were tortured, pffft, compared to what Saddam was capable of, they were LUCKY to be at the mercy of American soldiers, weren't they?
Considering that many of them, specifically those captured in action against US forces and not wearing any standardized uniform, the US would be well within their rights under the Geneva conventions to shoot on sight... perhaps so.
Let's get this over with: do you believe that this abuse of prisoners was despicable and not what our troops should be doing to prisoners? Just a question, to get your opinion on the issue.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: So, just to be clear, you're saying that it was okay to torture them, because, hey, at least the troops didn't shoot them on sight?
From what I'm hearing from the right-wing, that's just about right.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
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posted
Shh. Let Rob answer these points first, before we do anything else.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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Yes, it is. Not too unlike what happened at Abu Ghraib.
Although, to play devil's advocate, one could point out that at least that Kuwaiti woman was charged with something, even if it wasn't anything we would call a crime. Apparently, 70-90% of the Iraqis we've arrested are innocent, and we've just picked them up in the hopes that they'll know some insurgents.
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"You seem to notice a lot of things that aren't there."
A hilarious insult coming from someone who sees media plots to discredit the US everywhere he looks. Nice attempt at throwing up a smokescreen, though.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
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quote:Originally posted by Veers: Let's get this over with: do you believe that this abuse of prisoners was despicable and not what our troops should be doing to prisoners? Just a question, to get your opinion on the issue.
Yes. Absolutely. The things those guards did were not only sick, but terribly, incredibly stupid.
However, I believe this incident is being blown far out of proportion to many other crimes which don't seem to bother anyone much. I also believe that this is being done for mostly political purposes (although also to sell newspapers and get ratings.) As atrocities go, this is an extraordinarily minor incident. There haven't even been any deaths linked to anyone's actions yet.
It certainly doesn't rise to the level of Mai Lai, nor is it Hue, Halabja, Birjinni, Nanking, Dresden, or Auschwitz or even Waco. Or, for that matter, Algeria.
I am also rather certain about what I said about the Geneva Convention. Combatants (that is, those of the prisoners who are insurgents) apprehended not wearing uniforms are not protected. Legally, we could do virtually anything we wanted to with them, including summary executions.
That may not be moral, but its permitted.
And quite frankly, if they can summarily execute Pearl and Berg, well, then... I don't have a serious problem with "tit for tat."
I'm not one of those people who believes that I have to play at a "higher moral level" than my adversaries. Especially when my 'higher level' is their 'sign of weakness.' That's fine for low stakes, but not high. It's not, ultimately, a winning strategy.
If this makes me prime recruiting material for Section 31, so be it. Somebody has to save the world from the idealists.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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quote:I am also rather certain about what I said about the Geneva Convention.
I trust you've read the relevant parts before coming to this conclusion?
At any rate, the changing nature of modern warfare means that the non-uniformed excuse becomes less and less a reason that we can "do what we want to" with prisoners.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
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"I am also rather certain about what I said about the Geneva Convention. Combatants (that is, those of the prisoners who are insurgents) apprehended not wearing uniforms are not protected. Legally, we could do virtually anything we wanted to with them, including summary executions."
Only if they were, in fact, combatants. Which the vast majority apparently weren't.
"However, I believe this incident is being blown far out of proportion to many other crimes which don't seem to bother anyone much."
Name one. And it has to be something relevant. No more of that "someone else in some other place or some other time did something worse" bullshit.
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
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I'm not one of those people who believes that I have to play at a "higher moral level" than my adversaries.
And yet you are one of those people who believes in the moral superiority of everything the good old US of A does in the world. How... ODD.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
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quote:Originally posted by TSN: Only if they were, in fact, combatants. Which the vast majority apparently weren't.
Reports conflict. I tend to give preference to the ones which don't automatically give credence to everything anybody says, as AI and the Red Cross do.
quote: Name one. And it has to be something relevant. No more of that "someone else in some other place or some other time did something worse" bullshit.
Now of course you realize that you've asked for the impossible, as everything in the universe other than that specific crime occurred in some other time and/or place.
Please explain your definition of "relevant" in a manner more coherent within this space-time continuum, and I'll be better able to respond.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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quote:Originally posted by Cartman: I'm not one of those people who believes that I have to play at a "higher moral level" than my adversaries.
And yet you are one of those people who believes in the moral superiority of everything the good old US of A does in the world. How... ODD.
How odd that you believe that. I would consider it indicative of your disorder.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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quote:Originally posted by First of Two: And quite frankly, if they can summarily execute Pearl and Berg, well, then... I don't have a serious problem with "tit for tat."
So your entire argument boils down to two children pointing at each other saying "he started it!"?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"I would consider it indicative of your disorder."
Fortunately, the only diagnosis you're officially allowed to make is wether a book has been properly shelved or not, so I'll live.
I'm glad you cleared that up for me, though. I used to think you were just misguided, but now I know you're nothing but an ego-centric hypocrite. After all, if you don't believe you should have the moral high ground while playing with your adversaries, you really don't have a leg to stand on when you condemn said adversaries for also not playing by the rules and, say, beheading people, do you?
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
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