Israel is just as much to blame for the ongoing problems over there as Palestine is. Sure, some Palestinians are blowing up innocent Israelis. But, when the Israeli government responds by blowing up innocent Palestinians, my sympathy starts fading.
I absolutely agree that Israel's indiscriminate retaliation is a part of the problem but it's not "some" palestineans blowing up innocents: their aknowledged leader encourages and rewards it!
Nothing will change as long as Arafat is alive and in power: it's not in his intrests to settle on ANY peace plan authored by anyone. Not even muslim leaders.
It's not like he's going to strap explosives and blow himself up: not when he can encourage women and children to do it for him and still get treated with the respect of a world leader by Presidents and the UN alike.
If Arafat were to die of natural causes, there would likely be peace within a year folowing: if he's killed in an attack though, he'll be a maryter and we can just forget about peace there in our lifetimes.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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Um...natural causes over there is usually measured by caliber.
There will NEVER be peace in the middle east until it is turned into a glassy roller rink. When every Jew and every Arab is dead, then there will be peace. America is STUPID to believe otherwise. Isaac and Ishmael will be at each others throats till the very end. Why? Because there is ALWAYS a reason to hate if that's what you CHOOSE to do.
-------------------- I am the Anti-Abaddon. I build models at a scale of 2500/1
Registered: Aug 2003
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Seriously, do your words register in any sort of thought process, or do they just flow right out of your fingertips to the keyboard with no sort of rational filter whatsoever?
Registered: Mar 1999
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They are at war, WizArtist, they don't just feel pure, Batman-badguy hatred, they feel justification and pride. I don't think there can ever be peace between them, other between some occasional individuals who refuse to let cultural bias get between them (jewish Romeo & arabic Julia), but the easiest solution, except for nuclear strikes, which will never be and can never be an option, would be to separate the peoples to such an extent that each feel they have room to live.
That would of course open the chance for an even more pure isolationary culture and xenophobia for the muslim countries than already is, so that's not necessarily good either. Secondly, moving peoples around is like interfering with barrier reef microbiology, no matter how hard you try to care for it while you manipulate it, you end up hurting some of it.
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
Registered: Aug 1999
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-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sol System: "If Arafat were to die of natural causes, there would likely be peace within a year folowing"
Oh yeah?
Likely, yes: most of Arafat's top aides have pushed for peace but Arafat himself has reneged on all promises for years. Many good men- serious about peace- could take over and make a real change if Arafat dies of, say heart disease and not a missile attack.
If the Isralies were to kill Arafat in some raid, they'd have to go all out and do whatever is needed (including going to war with their neighbors) to crush Hammas completely or suffer endless reprisals from suicide bombers acting in Arafat's memory and things would be far more violent and disorganized than now with no central figurehead to speak both for-and to- the Palestenians.
The thinking that "there will be no peace untill the middle-east is a glass bowl" is idiotic in the extreme....what in hell are you thinking, Wiz?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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I don't know...while I think things would get worse, I don't know if their would be more suicide attacks. Israel killed both leaders of Hamas and it took them nearly 6 months to retaliate.
posted
So, uh, what about the (relatively) large paramilitary organizations, that, you know, only like Arafat slightly more than they do Israel? I can't imagine any leadership change in the Palestinian Authority affecting what Hamas does, for instance, other than the latter actually replacing the former.
There is no single person or authority representing the non-Israeli side in this conflict, and thus peace cannot be won simply by getting a new leader for one particular faction. Sure, your hypothetical Arafat replacement could build a broad coalition and bring everyone to the negotiating table and be remembered as one of the greatest statesmen in history, but that doesn't develop necessarily from Arafat being replaced. It could just as easily go the other way. (In fact, more easily, of course.)
Registered: Mar 1999
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What I was attempting to convey is this; How long will it be before an arab state obtains nuclear capability? If a nuclear weapon were detonated in Israel do we have ANY doubt what the retalitory action would be? India and Pakistan are threats already in that theatre. Iran isn't far off and the worst kept secrect is that Israel has nukes. I was in NO WAY saying we should nuke the mideast, but this is a fine example of an off-the-cuff statement being taken in a wrong manner. You can't expect rational thought to overrule deep-seeded hatred, bigotry, and "The List". (All the crimes that have been perpetrated on one side by the other)
Right now we are seeing the erosion of freedom in both the U.S. and Russia, all in the name of "security". Polarization is not just what is happening between the Democrats and Republicans, its a clannish fracturing happening along all lines globally. Everyone NEEDS to identify with SOMETHING to give themselves purpose and meaning in life. This leads to cultural distinctions that are ALWAYS a separating factor. When you try to meld cultures, you end up with a virtual Frankenstein's Nation.
Multiculturalism will never work when ANY side claims to be "right" or have "the answer". Unfortunately, it is these very same beliefs that delineate between these factions, cultures, and religions. You can NOT have both...either you will have one cultural theme prevail to the demise or submission of all others or you will have war.
-------------------- I am the Anti-Abaddon. I build models at a scale of 2500/1
Registered: Aug 2003
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Erosion of freedom in Russia? Freewheeling, everything's-running-smoothly, our-entire-nation-isn't-hostage-to-kleptocrats-spies-and-mafioso Russia? Eroded from what?
Also I take issue with your multiculturalism thing. There's a difference between a multicultural society and opposed cultures that just happen to share a geographical location.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Sol System: It could just as easily go the other way. (In fact, more easily, of course.)
Even a % chance is more than they have with Arafat in power now.
If there was that vaccum, other arab leaders could step in to try to negotiate a peace, it would'nt have to be one super-statesman. Currently, no one (arab leader) wants to be seen as siding with the isralies against even the most irrational arab.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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