quote:"...while taking extreme measures to prevent civillian casualties..."
I'd hardly say "extreme measures". "Token gestures", maybe. Sometimes "a complete lack of any attempt". But not "extreme measures".
Um...do you actually know anyone that's served over there? I do- four of my friends are or have been to Iraq and have seen combat- they tell me that the orders are-and always have been to protect civilians and not to engage any enemy unless fired on first if civilians are present.
That means that if they see a known insurgent in a crowd, they still wont open fire if civilians could be injured. Thats extreme measures during a war- no other conflict has ordered troops to take such precautions or to put themselves at such risk by doing so.
Despite the well-publicised accounts of prisoner abuse, there are thousands of troops from Britan and the US going waaaay out of their way to protect the locals, stop the insurgents and not get, you know....killed.
Not a "token gesture" by any serviceman.
quote:So, what's the problem this time? Because some of the flights take place during the day, they're not really in "the dark"? It's a metaphor. It means no-one gets to see them. And considering that the media really were banned from photographing the returning coffins, I don't see how you can argue that it isn't true.
Nothing is covered up or concealed from the public's view. That's just not true at all- CNN and FOX might not be reporting live from the graveside, but it is reported- for anyone that wants to see anyway. Pick up a newspaper sometime- as I said, every death from Florida is reported on here. So there are no photos of coffins stacked up? Do you really need them (aside from useing them to sell newspapers with the shock photo that is)?
I dont think the military is hiding anything by keeping reporters away from coffins- that kind of goulish shit was common in the Viet Nam war and was totally banned in the Gulf War.
Really, by comparison with GW1, this has been a very public conflict with little restrant on reporters.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
(I don't see the outrage in bodies being transported as cargo on civilian flights. I mean, guess what happens if I die and have to be shipped somewhere? That's just how bodies are shipped. It isn't inherently disrespectful. For example.)
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Intresting example from that "coldchef" poster.
Certainly does not seem hidden in any way.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Well, if the media missed a funeral with hundreds of attendees and a 75 car procession, it's not like it was somehow concealed from them by the military or anyone else- no one has a gag order on talking to reporters- in Iraq or here.
The military has been very forthcoming with the names and numbers of servicemen killed in Iraq/Afghanistan.
I think the lack of media coverage is that their own choice- for example, Florida's Sun Sentinel and Miami Herald both have deaily Iraq sections. ...starting at page 14.
When they post headlines from Iraq, their readership drops considerably. Even the start of Hussein's trial was not front page news on the Sentinel.
What does that say about the public's desire to know?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: "...while taking extreme measures to prevent civillian casualties..."
I'd hardly say "extreme measures". "Token gestures", maybe. Sometimes "a complete lack of any attempt". But not "extreme measures".
This is grossly unfair, not to mention inaccurate. Given the nature of the fighting in Iraq, civilian casualties caused by coalition forces have been remarkably low. This is particularly true when you consider the destructive potential of modern weapons when used indiscriminately.
The primary problem in Iraq has always been a lack of troops to secure the country; this was the result of false assumptions about the extent of opposition as well as a desire on the American part to do it quickly and cheaply. The troops used were more than adequate to defeat the Iraqi army and take over the country in one of the most efficiently conducted campaigns in modern warfare. Post war, however, America assumed the situation would be such that troop levels could be maintained for a while then drawn down. This was wholly unrealistic. Remember, it took around 400,000 Commonwealth soldiers and policemen to put down around 45,000 communists in Malaya. And that took 12 years, with a broadly sympathetic population and a reliable local source of trained manpower.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Particularly bad is the nonsense about "The 2,000 American dead are an embarrassment. They are transported to their graves in the dark."
My mind referenced the fact that the Administration has banned the photographing of the flag draped caskets as they return to Dover Air Force Base.
I think the Administration feels it would be bad for the morale of the American people to see photos like this:
Photos like these, of numbers of caskets sitting together, reflect the fact that large numbers of American soldiers are dying. Additionally, this type of photo has a power that photos of single caskets can not have.
They reflect the reality of war which the Administration tries so hard to keep in the deep background.
*Do however read a bit of information regarding the photos.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
I have NO respect for reporters. In the finest tradition of Hearst, they will MANUFACTURE a story for their own benefit. A couple of years after I graduated, a girl from my school came up missing. There was a huge search and fear of an abduction. The state had received a lot of rain in that period and a few days later her car was found in a ditch after the waters had receded. She had ran off the road, her car overturned and she had drowned.
Not half an hour after the discovery, there were THREE news crews at my former school shoving cameras and microphones in fellow classmates faces asking "How does this make you feel?" and other crap like that before anyone at the school had been notified or prepared to deal with the trauma to the students.
Of course, the reporters defended their actions as the publics "Right to Know" how these friends were being effected by the news. And of course it didn't hurt their ambitions to be on "News first at 4 p.m.". One of these same reporters did an expose' on "Good Samaritans". She was a blonde bombshell and she set up "Scientific Studies" of responses to her being stranded with a stalled car on the roadside. In one set of tests, she was dressed in a fat suit that made her look like she weighed 300 lbs., in the other she was dressed in a slinky outfit. AMAZINGLY, she got more people to stop for her in that getup than in the fat suit, though the numbers were not that far apart. This is what is considered "good reporting" now?
I think the first thing that should be done is eliminate ratings for newscasts and disallow the sales of ad space during the news. Then there would be less clamoring for ratings and you might actually get 15 min. of news during a half-hour news show.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
So... do you have a screencap of her in the slinky outfit?
Reporters are what they are. I've heard stories on the news and on programs like Dateline that, well, made me stop watching Dateline. But you know... there are other things to worry about.
Oh, and the idiot who went to your school and spread that info around in that manner should have been fired.
posted
After reading you post and it's tenuous connection to the topic at hand, allow me to offer you a couple of new signature lines Wiz.
"I reject reality and substitute my own."
And...
"I hijack threads for my own off topic rants."
You have no respect for reporters because of what you think a bunch of goofball local newies did. Well, good for you.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
My apologies for terrorizing this poor unsuspecting thread. Seeing as how the prior posts had nothing to do with media coverage (or lack thereof) I can see how terrifying my post must have been.
My point is that the media will report on what makes them money via ratings or advances the producer/editor's personal agendas. If they are looking for the revenue dollars, they are going to sensationalize ANYTHING. If I were a member of one of these soldiers families, I would NOT want some assinine reporter there with camera in hand snapping away. That soldier gave his life in the service of this country, right or wrong in this war. To sensationalize it for your benefit or to use it as a political piece only denigrates the sacrifice that that individual made. Even if you don't believe in the actions of the Administration, you can at least honor the fallen who did their duty to this country.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
But everything you say after "my point is" is plain common sense. How is that a point?
Something I thought about, if Pinter had been well enough to travel up here he'd not had the chance to makes as long an acceptance speech. Plus, he is getting this price for his writing and dramas, not for human rights. Although the motivation was "Harold Pinter - who in his plays uncovers the precipice under everyday prattle and forces entry into oppression's closed rooms".
Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Photos like these, of numbers of caskets sitting together, reflect the fact that large numbers of American soldiers are dying. Additionally, this type of photo has a power that photos of single caskets can not have.
They reflect the reality of war which the Administration tries so hard to keep in the deep background.
You'd think a photo like that one would be preferable to showing a grief-stricken family (of voters besides), but I dont pretend to really understand most of the government's reasoning.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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"...they tell me that the orders are-and always have been to protect civilians and not to engage any enemy unless fired on first if civilians are present. "That means that if they see a known insurgent in a crowd, they still wont open fire if civilians could be injured. "Thats extreme measures during a war..."
Clearly I don't have a military mind, as, to me, all of that sounds like common sense, not "extreme" measures.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well, compare it to, say, WWII where the "greatest generation" certainly did not adhere to such restrictions.
It's difficult to consider that (with all the bad press) our troops are held to a higher standard of engagment. ...though it's partly because the enemy is not easily identifiable.
Mosques are also off-limits areas- even when the troops know insurgents are hiding there, using it as a base and even firing from within, it's common for troops to fall back until the OK is given to take the building. Such are the extremes of not wanting civilian deaths.
That being said, an estimated 150-300 civilians are killed each month (if you include deaths attributed to both sides). Clearly, that's horiffic, but it reflects problems with overall policy and strategy- not the actions of the troops in the field.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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