posted
In light of the recent debate in the Congress here is what I would like to see happen. Some enterprising White House reporter to do needs to ask Mr. Bush what defines victory in our current situation in Iraq.
Until we know what defines victory, it is wrong for Mr. Bush to keep saying �Stay the Course� because there is no course to stay.
Simply put, the current situation in Iraq is untenable. We can stay there and bleed from a thousand paper cuts because we haven�t enough troops on the ground to do anything other than that. We haven�t enough troops to secure the country, some might say that in light of the recent kidnaping and killing of soldiers at a checkpoint, that we haven�t enough troops to secure much more of Iraq other than the Green Zone. We certainly haven�t enough troops on the ground to protect Iraqi civilians from car bombs and kidnapings.
Which leaves the question what to do?
With no definition of what victory is, as the current situation stands we�re spinning our wheels in the sand while soldiers die for some undefined cause.
The only other approach I can see is admitting, at least to ourselves, that the Rumsfeld approach to a minimal ground force to secure the peace was a failure. Secondly, we have to admit, at least to ourselves, that the flower-strewn welcome that Vice- President Chenney predicted not only did not materialize to the degree expected but was thwarted but mistakes like not stopping the post-shooting-phase looting.
After finally seeing the facts as they are, we�re left with only two viable conclusions. Declare victory and turn things over to the Iraqis and leave or send hundred of thousands of additional troops to provide security for the country and root out the insurgents.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
No "enterprising reporter" will ask those questions because he/she will have their press pass revoked if they do.
Bet on it.
Even if we pull out of Iraq, we'll still have to go back into Afghanistan in force and re-take that country (as it's getting to be just as out of control as Iraq- just not reported on).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: No "enterprising reporter" will ask those questions because he/she will have their press pass revoked if they do.
Bet on it.
Might be worth the sacrifice to see what he'll say. I'm waiting for the day when he crumbles under the pressure and cries. I don't mean the fake act he pulls sometimes, I want real tears. Muhahahahahahahaha
Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
posted
It's more likely he'll snap and start speaking in tounges and quoting all sorts of bible verse nonsense...stuff aout the Endtimes and repent ye sinners...
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
Sen. Joseph Biden (news, bio, voting record), D-Del., said he believes the American people are frustrated by the Bush administration's failure to articulate a clear strategy for winning in Iraq. Benchmarks and timetables for a withdrawal are needed to gauge progress and limit U.S. casualties, he said.
"If I had known the president was going to be this incompetent in his administration, I would not have given him the authority" to go to war, said Biden, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
*Emphasis added.
And then I thought that this quote from Apocalypse Now (1979) encapsulated the Bush Administration's strategy in Iraq:
quote:Willard: They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound. Kurtz: Are my methods unsound? Willard: I don't see any method at all, sir.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528
posted
"Iraq is our generations Vietnam."
I don't remember who said it, but it certainly fits.
History repeats itself...Why doesn't anyone say that when something GOOD happens.
Even under Saddam things weren't this bad over there. At least there was order... That's about the only good thing I have to say about him.
I have only one question: How much longer until Bush gets forced out?
-------------------- Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I cannot accept. And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
quote:Even under Saddam things weren't this bad over there.
Bull Shit. Things were not so randomly violent and the adverage Iraqi had his power on more often, but dont think that means things are worse off now. Worse off for the minority that once hogged all the political power- oh yeah. Worse for the Kurds? For women? For anyone wanting to speak their mind or hope for the future?
No way.
That's not to say it's not a clusterfuck that could completely implode, I'm just pointing out that even insurgents and roadside bombs beat orderly deathsquads, mass graves and prisons full of the kids of "enemies of the state".
In time, I think Iraq will be a lot better, able to stand all on it's own and will be the most moderate muslim country since Afghanistan (stupidly1) elected the Taliban into power. But they'll still hate us Americans- no avoiding that one.
Yah- I'm still optimistic about Iraq's prospects- it's not trendy, but what the hey.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:I'm just pointing out that even insurgents and roadside bombs beat deathsquads, mass graves ((Maybe it doesn't count if no one bothers to bury them?)) and prisons full of the kids of "enemies of the state".
Da_bang80
A few sectors short of an Empire
Member # 528
posted
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: [QUOTE] That's not to say it's not a clusterfuck that could completely implode, I'm just pointing out that even insurgents and roadside bombs beat orderly deathsquads, mass graves and prisons full of the kids of "enemies of the state".
You forgot to add WMD's to that list... Oh! Wait, there were none...
I wonder how much of what you said is true and how much is villification propagated by the media?
And really how are the US troops any different? Invading a sovereign nation with an unprovoked attack? Dropping bombs on non-combatants, and rounding up people believed to be terrorists and torturing them in the same prisons as Saddam's political enemies?
I'm sorry if this offends anyone, or if you strongly disagree. But you had no right to invade Iraq. The excuse that there were terrorists just doesn't stand with me. The WMD excuse would have worked for me if there actually were any.
But as long as you're there, at least you caught him.
-------------------- Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things I cannot accept. And the wisdom to hide the bodies of all the people I had to kill today because they pissed me off.
posted
I never said anything about being "right", only refuting that Iraq is now somehow worse off than under Saddam's regime.
As to being "propagated by the media", that's nonsense- all that has been reported by Amnesty International long before Bush decided it was politically expedient to invade Iraq. You know, back when the US told it's citizens that the silly "no fly zone" was keeping order in Iraq- back when the US would loudly speak of winning the Gulf War while doing nothing to help Iraq get from under Saddam's control. Back when we told the Kurds we'd back them against Saddam and then left them to die at his hands. A lot of the mass graves "found" in Iraq were first seen back when Saddam's forces first dug them- during the cease fire, when UN sanctions were doing such a great job of pressuring him out of office.
All of which was reported to the United Nations and the U.S. (by many human rights organizations in the mid-90's) and firmly ignored by both the politicians (many of whom still serve in congress) and the media. So much for "villification".
No one (not me anyway) is saying any of Bush's justifications for war were true, but face facts- we're there and need to finish what we started (in Afghanistan as well, obviously)- seperate from any "war on terror".
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
Mistake ONE was not castrating Saddam in GW1. Stopping short and HOPING that a battered people would rise up and finish him off was absurd. It was like taking one fang from a rattlesnake and then hoping that the mongoose tied up in the corner could take him out.
If generals actually ran the wars, there wouldn't be all this crap that goes on to assuage the politicians. They'd simply go in, kick ass, and get out with the minimum of casualties.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
quote: All of which was reported to the United Nations and the U.S. (by many human rights organizations in the mid-90's) and firmly ignored by both the politicians (many of whom still serve in congress) and the media. So much for "villification".
Do you hjave copies of those reports, because I have not been able to find anything like that. Reports of mass graves only seem to be coming from US propagandists. I am seeing things like this, showing that mass graves was also part of a show to support a war.
-------------------- "and none of your usual boobery." M. Burns
Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
Didn't Time or some such magazine run an article or two about Saddam back in the mid to late 80's?
If I remember correctly they may have compared him to Hitler.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
That linked article "has only found about 5000 graves" circa 2004. Hundreds more were unearthed just months later (pulled from the same Google search your linked artilce is on no less).
I've seen a lot of coverage on them since then. Frontline's excelent documentaries on Iraq, and everything from the first Gulf War through today (six documentaries fo far?) had also reported on the mass graves (of Kurdish rebels we asked to "rise up" 'cause the US would have their backs). Saddam would wipe out whole Kurdish villages. ...as reported by The Washington Post.
Unfortuantely, the air of deception about all the reasons going into Iraq will make many people say "it was all made up to support the war", but it was not.
I dont think we'll have a definitive answer as to the number of graves/victims untill long after the war is over and the UN (or the Iraqi people themselves) can add it all up- news sources like Fox News place the number at 300,000 and the U.S. State Department backs that figure up.
Human Rights Watch does not think the U.S. has done nearly enough to protect these sites -you know, sites that so many now (in their hatred for Blair/Bushco) dispute even exist.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
A lot of people are saying we should have finished the job in GW1. And I'm pretty sure I disagree. I think the US had cobbled together an international consensus and enjoyed some support from countries in the region to liberate Kuwait. Even had it been logistically possible to continue on to Baghdad, I think the president was cognizant of the fact that such a move would evaporate any consensus.
And so more recently even if Sadaam murdered only tens of thousands of people rather than hundreds of thousands of people, does that in some way make it OK? Is there a magic number? I'm not saying that the US didn't fudge the facts for going into Iraq, or that we were ever on the level about our justifications, but even by conservative estimates, Sadaam Hussein was still a genocidal fucking bastard.
Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
