-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
The people overseeing this nifty little Woah oan Terrrr, their kids aren't in danger, and nor are they. While no-one can be completely safe, I doubt Bush would ever end up in a situation where he'd have to do anything necessary, no matter how bad, to save the twins! Instead they're letting us think we're in danger - while doing all sorts of stupid things that make the situation worse, and less safe for the average citizen; and all for their own financial and political benefit.
posted
But, OK, to be less terse, there is such a vast difference between "here's how I'd act in a hypothetical situation threatening a child" and "here's how I'd set national foreign policy" that sarcasm seems appropriate.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Sol System: But, OK, to be less terse, there is such a vast difference between "here's how I'd act in a hypothetical situation threatening a child" and "here's how I'd set national foreign policy" that sarcasm seems appropriate.
Thank goodness you were there to supply the sarcasm.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Sol, I would have you ask the people that did lose offspring in any terrorist attack how they feel about it, and what methods that they deem to harsh in order to keep any of their other kids from dying the same way.
Would this touch on reality for you?
Lee, you point is off in that some of the people were in a building that was hit by a plane, so they were in danger. I can not argue on the benefits derived from this for those that can grab ahold of them.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Sol, I would have you ask the people that did lose offspring in any terrorist attack how they feel about it, and what methods that they deem to harsh in order to keep any of their other kids from dying the same way.
Would this touch on reality for you?
There is a reason why we don't put those people in foreign policy and why we can't create foreign policy on the basis of 'gosh, I'd torture and kill to get my kid back.'
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I was thinking more along the lines of doing in to try to prevent others from losing their kids.
I am still waiting for someone to propose a better method for gaining the information needed to prevent future attacks.
Would completely pulling out of the Mid East work? Or would it give them the idea that they were winning and press on with more attacks?
Would dropping the world police theme work, switching over to have a kinder gentler trigger finger, giving them lots of money and just hushing up? Or would that be viewed, by them, as winning and press on with more attacks?
Instead of giving me the, It's not right, we can not do that, we are sinking to their level, lines, give me an alternative to look at.
I agree that, ideally, we should not take these actions, but with thousands dead what would your course of action be? Without using the, Well, I wouldn't do that dodge.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
One things for certain- becoming torturers and terrorists ourselves is not going to make us any safer. Consider that over 10,000 people detained by U.S. forces (in Iraq/Afghanistan) have been released as not having anythng to do with terrorism. Now consider what would happen if interrogators were given a free hand to torture for information and were pressured to get results... It's just what Saddam's police did to get "confessions"...they always get whatever they were looking for. Even if the victim did nothing.
You want a better method of preventing future attacks without resorting to torturing prisoners?
First- do what we set out to do: catch Bin Laden, cush Al Queda, install a democratic government in Afghanistan and eliminate the taliban for good. Those were the post 9/11 goals.
Second- recruit/hire/train locals to be our much-needed "human intel" against terrorists.
Third- work to make the lives of the adverage people (read: poorest) over there better. Terrorist organizations get their support by blaming the terrible conditions people live in on the West (the U.S. in particular). All our current intel in Iraq/Afghanistan comes from people that have been helped by US forces and want to live without fear.
Once we show the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan that we are not there to oppress, occupy or steal their oil, we'll get a lot more cooperation from them against terrorists.
Every time a case of US soldiers torturing someone comes to light, the adverage person says "they're just as bad as the terrorists" and that's whay they want us the fuck out of their country(s)...and why so many new terrorists are being recruited each day.
We cant buy off terrorists, but we sure as hell cant become terrorists either.
Bush revealed that those secret CIA prisons used "alternative methods" of getting information and that "many terror plots were foiled as a result". But he did not say what information was gained, how it was gained or what "plots" were foiled. National Security, you understand- just trust him!
Reading the newspapers today, it sure does not seem like the prot...er..."alternative methods" used resulted in much success- Iraq and Afghanistan are more violent than ever and the biggest terror plot stopped all year was foiled by the British police.
Somehow, torture des not seem to be the answer we need.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I read your first line and thought, oh great a long dodgy post, but it wasn't. Thank you.
Iraq shouldn't be mentioned, as far as terrorism goes, as it was Bush II personal goal to get Saddam, and the opportunity presented itself. The other goals should be the priority I agree.
Humint has taken a fall from the good old Reagan years, which it never should have, but the budget cuts made the American people happy. Things like this have taken a far back seat to the super hi tech stuff, which could lead me off on another tangent, but I'll refrain.
I agree that we should be doing public works efforts, and that it needs to be run far better than anything done in the Mid East to date. This administration has given a lot of money away for nothing over there.
I am not saying that every suspect should be tortured, but known ones that do have the intel and are not giving it up, to me, is a different item. The general abuse by US troops is sickening.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
So, torture should be allowed in instances where it is actually useful for information? If a US soldier were captured and tortured because he really did have information about troop movements or whatever, would you say that that was justified, as well?
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
The point is that torture is torture, no matter who is doing it. And if we say it's OK because its our guys doing it to fight terror or maintain peace or whatever it is we're trying to do wherever it is this week, then right there we've established that violating a persons human rights is an effective and even in some cases justified means of obtaining what you want. We don't get to have it both ways.
I think the problem is that if the US decides that we're the sort of state who will perpetrate this sort of thing to fight terror, then we've crossed a line. Even if we've done so with the best intentions. We become (even more than we already were) the embodiment of what the terrorists or insurgents (or democrats or whatever we're calling them today) are fighting against. And a lesson maybe we could learn from them is that when you spend too much time fighting against something, sometimes you lose sight of what it is you're fighting for.
Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:I am not saying that every suspect should be tortured, but known ones that do have the intel and are not giving it up, to me, is a different item. The general abuse by US troops is sickening.
But, you see, the general troop treatment over there (by war standards) is fantastic- civillian treatment guidelines are far more strict than any other war in U.S. history.
It's the (comparitivly) very few documented cases of horrendus torture/murder that makes the whole situation seem (to both them and us) like soldiers are marauding and killing everyone- and with no supervision.
If a few (horrible) cases of blatantly illeagal -and condemned- abuses cause such a bad reputation, imagine what sanctioning torture will do to the U.S.'s failing image, and how much more difficult local cooperation will become.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ritten: To me they are no different than rats chewing at the underbody of world society. So to treat them like rats does not bother me.
This statement frightens and disturbs me. To take any group of human beings and view them as somehow less than human beings in order to justify treating them brutally is an atrocity. It is that simple. It doesn't matter who started it.
These people are fighting us because they believe we pose a threat to them, and it isn't a totally delusional view. All the conflict, manipulation, and mistrust between their geo-political-socio-cultural world and ours erupted in violence often throughout history. The events of the past several years are simply a continuation of this. The answer is to stop perpetuating it, not to further exacerbate it by living up to their portrayal of us.
Oh, and if you want to talk about rats "chewing at the underbody of world society," look at the contemptible, self-serving zealots running the country....
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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