posted
Sol I don't believe any of that crap, but...
The Laws of Thermal Dynamics (I believe it's the second) disproves the theory of evolution. I'll tell you why if you don't want to look it up yourself, but I am running out of time.
I learned that in Chemistry my Junior year of HS. My teacher pointed that out the first day of class.
------------------ It's all about the Pentiums, Baby! "I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited August 11, 1999).]
posted
IIRC, the second law of thermodynamics deals with how when energy is converted from one form to another, some of it is turned into heat and such.
Actually, I could probably use the first law of thermodynamics to disprove the existence of any sort of deity (in a semi-serious sort of way), but I'd have to do further research on the subject.
posted
Sorry, Bryce, but you must not have paid attention in that class. Either that, or your teacher didn't know what he/she was talking about, and must not have paid attention in THEIR class. (Was this, by any chance, in a "Christian" school?)
I assume you mean to show that order cannot arise from disorder, re the laws of Thermodynamics. This would be all well and good, EXCEPT...
Thermodynamics applies only to a CLOSED system, which is receiving no new input of energy from any outside source.
Earth is NOT a closed system. Earth receives its energy mostly from the SUN. Since the sun gives of BILLIONS of times more energy than is utilized on Earth, the laws of Thermodynamics are NOT violated.
It takes very little energy to mutate a gene, which is why new cold bacteria and viruses are constantly springing up.
Since the UNIVERSE is the only closed system, and since Universal Entropy IS increasing, no violation exists there, either.
------------------ "When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 11, 1999).]
posted
Also, complexity rising out of chaos is a rather common occurance in the natural world. Shockingly common, in the sense that it pops up in places no one thought to look. The creation of a termite mound, for instance. There is no overarching plan to these mounds. Rather, each termite has a rather simple instinct that says "Pick up this rock, and place it where you find another." After the whole colony has been doing this for a time, you have a very large and very intricate lair.
At any rate, I've always been somewhat baffled by this whole mess in the first place. When I was younger (and more religious) I went to one of these "Creation Science" conferences. I never could quite see why they thought that the basis of Christianity lays in a literal seven day creation period anymore than it depends upon a geocentric universe.
------------------ "We took a small flight, in the middle of the night, from one tiny place to another." -- Ben Folds Five
posted
I was talking about the whole universe First! The sun (and the universe) doesn't recharge and will go out in a few billion if I am not mistaken?
No, it's public. Look up Wheelersburg High School in Infoseek, the addy changes about every yr.
------------------ It's all about the Pentiums, Baby! "I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
posted
Since NOBODY knows what conditions were BEFORE the beginning of the Universe, we cannot confirm OR deny that the Universe's existence in and of itself defies the laws of thermodynamics. We CAN, however, deduce that the titanic amount of energy released in the initial stages of the Big Bang was far less than that required to form galaxies (indeed, it is currently believed that more than 90% of the Universe's original mass was converted to energy and thus dissipated in the initial few minutes of the Universe's existence), and thusly the continued existence and evolution of the universe, while apparently very complex and orderly, is, in fact, increasing in disorder (not to mention that all the energy released by all the stars burning increases entropy tremendously), and therefore does not violate the laws of thermodynamics EITHER.
Ah, I love basic astrophysics.
------------------ "When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
posted
BTW, the fact that the sun and even the Universe will eventually burn themselves out (in roughly 5 billion years for the sun, and possibly a trillion or more years for the Universe) and don't recharge doesn't go AGAINST the laws of thermodynamics (as your most recent post seems to imply you believe - although I could be misreading it), it PROVES it.
------------------ "When we turn our back on our principles, we stop being human." -- Janeway, "Equinox"
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 12, 1999).]
posted
I would never have believed this were it not that it was reported in some of the newspapers over here in the UK. The article said that the board had indeed passed a new curriculum which removes all mention of evolution. Did this in fact happen? The same paper had an editorial comment along the lines of 'should this sort of lunacy spread throughout the US or indeed to Europe it will be a blow against the whole of Western civilisation'.
I see there is another thread on a similar topic started by Holst in which I have posted my views on evolution v creationism but I would just like to say;
1) Oh no please don't tell me the hoary old 'Second Law of Thermodynamics disproves evolution' story is still doing the rounds.
2) I was just thinking how such a thing would be impossible in the UK we are more scientifically awere and literate. By the way is it true that according to a recent survey 55% of Americans don't believe man is related to other animals and 59% didn't know how long it takes for the Earth to revolve around the sun? When I got home on Wednesday I asked my girlfriend if she had seen the eclipse. Apparently the mother of one of her friends at work had burst into tears during the event because she did not undertand what was happening.
Sometimes I feel like crying too.
[This message has been edited by JEM (edited August 13, 1999).]
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The Second Law thing is kind of silly, anyway the way I remember the Second Law was that in the process of making something orderly, it genrates heat, with tends to make the system in whole more disorderly. This is also the augurment I use to try to explain to my mom why I don't clean my room, (BtW they didn't buy it , even though it is true).
------------------ HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )
posted
I've learned the Second Law of Thermodynamics/Entropy half a million times in chemistry class, and I have no idea how it can be turned around to disapprove Evolution.
------------------ "I would be delighted to offer any advice I can on understanding women. When I have some, I'll let you know." --Picard to Data, "In Theory"
posted
What the creationist say Tora, is that since the Second law of Thermodynamics says that the Universe tends to toward Chaos, and eventually will end in Chaos, but the Earth ended up with order (AKA life). Of course what the creationist fail to remember is because the Second law to Thermodynamics says that (well what I understand of it, because it is impossible to find a simple defination of it, believe me I tried ) that energy used to create order (lets say cleaning) actually releases heat which tends to cause disorder. So basically the more you organize the more messy it becomes (well the whole system at least, while your end could be very orderly, the whole system becomes non orderly). So I used this logical arguement to tell my parents that cleaning my room was actually a bad thing, alas they didn't buy it .
------------------ HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos:-) )
posted
JEM: I really can't imagine them banning evolution from the National Curriculum over here. Our 'Pro-creationism' lobby is far less large than in the US. They spend most of their time on 'anti-guns' anyway...
I went to a Catholic school where they taught Evolution. Out of standard school books, not special 'christian' ones or something. We were also taught creationism at RE. The teachers said that you should make your own minds up, but mainly they seemed to go for the 'the two ideas don't have to be mutually exclusive' thing. (BTW, who says that the seven days in Genesis is a Earth-day? A day for God could be eternity for us...)
Although there was a point in Sol's first message that made sense. Evolution shouldn't be taught as a 100% proved theory, like the laws of thermodynamics. The contradictory evidence, or ideas should also be presented. Alternative views should always be presented where possible. Within reason.
Also, doesn't Chaos theory have something to do with the apparent order rising out of increasing entropy of the universe somehhow creating order (oooh, so long since Physics classes), or have I gone mad?
------------------ Headmaster suspended for using big-faced boy as satellite-dish -The Day Today
posted
I actually have a science book that teaches the Geocentric model next to the Heliocentric model. It then lists several pieces of evidence in favor of Heliocentric, and against Geocentric. It then states that, in light of the evidence, it is logical to assume that Heliocentric is correct. This is what they should do with Evolution and Creation (SPONTANEOUS Creation, that is). List the basic ideas of each theory, then list the evidence. If no conclusion can be drawn, then let the students decide. Nothing besides mathematics should be taught as absolute truth.
------------------ HEAD KNIGHT: We are now... no longer the Knights Who Say 'Ni'. KNIGHTS OF NI: Ni! Shh! HEAD KNIGHT: Shh! We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky-ecky-ecky-ecky-pikang-zoop-boing-goodem-zoo-owli-zhiv'. RANDOM: Ni!
, even though it is true). 
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