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From your point of view... But anyways, I'm done. you can be just as stubborn as the christians you insist on fighting. Good luck First of Two...
------------------ "I will remember you...Will you remember me? Don't let your love pass you by...Weep not for the memories..." Sarah McLachlan
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There was once a short verse written my a man whose name escapes me, shortly after WWII, as I recall, and it went a bit like this:
"First they came for the homosexuals, and I did not stand up because I was not a homosexual. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not stand up because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I did not stand up because I was not a Catholic. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to stand up for me."
So I stand.
Admittedly, you seem to have learned the lesson that most cannot, and have the ability to say "I might be wrong," if not the full truth, which is "I don't know." Too many have not, though, for it to be safe, just yet. And by stating that you believe in such a way, to too many others you are committing heresy, if not blasphemy.
I don't say what I say because I'm looking for conflict.. although that's an added benefit when you consider much progress can be made through conflict. I say what I say to puncture the balloons of the folks who think their religious value system is infallible. Why? No more Theocracies. No more Inquisitions. No more witchhunts. Never Again.
------------------ "We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
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What y'all (there's a word I bet nobody here's ever seen in print before) are confusing is the difference between tolerance and apathy. The reason we send missionaries is so we can teach people what we believe. If they don't listen, we don't force them to convert or kill them or anything like that, we just let them live as they like. Tolerance doesn't mean that we can't teach people that we believe that they're wrong, it means that we can't persecute someone BECAUSE we believe they're wrong.
And of course we might be wrong, and we don't know. We BELIEVE we're right. The same applies to you. Reminds me of that book mentioned in the Hitch-Hikers Trilogy, "That About Wraps it Up for God".
Our religion may not be infallible, but it's either inspired, or it's got a lot more coincidences in it's favor than any other I know of, whereas your religion (and athesim is a religion) relies on more coincidences than I can count. Our source for guidance was written by two dozen people over several millenia, with no contradictions, and cross-references throughout. The probibility of that happening by chance is essentially nil.
------------------ "Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal." - Zaphod Beeblebrox, `The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
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"The probibility of that happening by chance is essentially nil."
Perhaps that happened because they rejected all the books with contradictions in them. The Catholics chose what books you're reading in that Bible, after all.
------------------ "I told you. You're dead. This is the afterlife. And I'm God." --Q to Picard, "Tapestry".
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By definition, atheism cannot possibly be a religion. A meaning none. Theism meaning, in general terms, religion.
Now, you can certainly find atheists who have a zealous devotion towards their beliefs, and such zealotry does cause them to resemble religious zealots.
------------------ "Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from." -- Soul Coughing
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No...Luther, Calvin and others did. Luther wanted to get rid of the Aphropha (sp.) and the book of James. We later kept the book of James.
------------------ It's all about the Pentiums, Baby! "I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
But there were more than that. When the Bible was first codified, that is, put into a form that would be generally recognizable to someone today, it was around 300 AD. Of course, there have been changes since then, as well, but mostly we're talking about the oldest times. Upwards of sixty gospels, including those of Mary, Thomas, and James, were discarded, and the 'canon' reduced to the four in the current Bible. The decision was made not to include Quabbala, and other books.
Why? Politics. The Powers That Were decided they wanted a Bible which closely agreed with what THEY wanted to put forth (remember, the early church was an EXTREMELY fractured and factious group, with a dozen or so different interpretations of everything from Jesus's life and death, to what He said.
What you read today is the politically sanitized version of the originals, written by the folks who won the power struggles by wiping out all opposition.
------------------ "We shall not yield to you, nor to any man." -- Freak, The Mighty.
Through the years we (protestants) have excluded all texts that are almost totally legalistic from the Bible.
We do this because one of Jesus' main beefs with the Jews was their legalism (Pharisees, Saducees, ect.) Since He preached against this we have tried to exclude Biblical era books that are largely legalistic.
------------------ It's all about the Pentiums, Baby! "I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support"
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited August 29, 1999).]
posted
You can define religion as a belief pertaining to the supernatural. Athesim is the belief that there is no supernatural. It's still a belief pertaining to the supernatural.
------------------ "Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal." - Zaphod Beeblebrox, `The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
Disbelief in one thing does not constitute belief in another.
------------------ "Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from." -- Soul Coughing
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I find myself siding with Bryce on this one.
Anyone ever hear of the Holographic Theory? It is the only theory that I have come across that both solidifies my growing belief system and unifies science and religion.
Under such theory, all religions are possible. Reality is pliable. Belief is power and truth. Everything is personal.
If I were a God and knew that only one belief system was neccesary for the development of humanity, then I would not bother to allow other systems to permeat. Differing views on life are needed to aid the development of humanity as it grows. All religions are correct in their tenants, no matter how opposite they may be to another religion. The concept of "there can only be one True religion" fails under the observation that there are a diversity of religions to embrace. The only belief system that doesn't fail is the one that recognizes this truth and allows it--the Holographic Theory. As humans we like to impose control and rules on our dieties. God can only do this or that. And when we limit ourselves to such a metric, we blind ourselves to a fullfilment that openmindedness can only give.
I myself am on a spiritual journey. My soul is damned and I seek salvation. I know what must be done for this salvation. I'm still rebellious and will look for another option. In the end I feel surrender is the ultimate option. I'm not too fond of surrender.
------------------ "I came upon a wedding, good old families had contribed. Bethlaham the bride-groom, Babylon the bride. Great Babylon was naked, ah she stood there trembling for me. And Bethlaham enflamed us both, like a shy one at some orgy. And when we fell together, all our flesh was like a veil. But I had to draw aside to see the serpent eat its tail. Some women wait for Jesus, and some women wait for Cain. So I hang upon my alter, and I hoist my axe again. And I take the one that finds me back to where it all began. When Jesus was the honeymoon, and Cain was just a man. And we read from pleasant Bibles, that are bound in blood and skin, But the wilderness is gathering all its children back again." excerpt from the song "Last Year's Man" By Leonard Cohen.
posted
Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, but does that mean that what you believe defines your personal universe? Sounds like we're all trapped in static warp shells, guys. : )
------------------ "Don't you try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal." - Zaphod Beeblebrox, `The Restaurant at the End of the Universe'
------------------ "Something I can't comprehend. Something so complex and couched in its equation. So dense that light cannot escape from." -- Soul Coughing
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We are not trapped. Although we can trap ourselves off. Seclude ourselves from the rest of humanity. We exist in a realm of parallel worlds, the gateway between each being the proximity, introduction, or rapport of another individual. Our Gods define ourselves.
Registered: Mar 1999
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