*ahem* Where was I? Ah yes, health care.

"This stupid health care plan that would FORCE you to get health care for your children violates the tenth ammendment."

Uh...huh. Health care for children equals bad. Righto. Are you also against any invasion of parental rights? For instance, shall we abolish the crime of child abuse? After all, I have a God-given right to beat my child with this baseball bat, don't I? And what about my right to refuse medical care of any kind for my children? By God my child was meant to die from encephalitis, and die they shall!

"Tell me: you're a liberal, right? Does that mean that you would be in favor of more powerful health care systems and social security and welfare et al.?"

Being a rather good friend of Mr. Jay's, I think I can say that you're phrase is a little odd. What, pray tell, is the problem with health care. Most people seem to think that health is a good thing, and caring for it is even better. But hey, if I can't afford to pay 3/4's of my monthly income on pills, that's my fault, right?

"If so, doesn't that seem to you like such programs would just be making people more and more dependant on the national government, which, taken to it's logical conclusion, would be socialism? I remind you that socialism failed miserably in the defunct U.S.S.R."

You are, of course, aware that we live in a society, yes? Perhaps you'd like to fill me in on what a society should be doing that isn't social. And hence socialist. I remind you that such nations as Canada and Britain have some of these evil programs, but they seem to be getting along rather well. Is it perfect? Gosh no. I for one don't want a Canadian-style system in place here. But I would like to see one that works to provide affordable health care to everyone.

"True conservatism is getting the government OUT of our lives and businesses, whereas liberalism generally favors BIGGER government with MORE power and MORE taxes to fund it! So tell me, who's really Fascist?"

Er...no, not really. Conservatism is the belief that existing social institutions are the best. Liberalism is the belief that social institutions must change to deal with new situations. Most everyone in D.C., Democrat or Republican, is a conservative. They just have faith in differing institutions.

Oooo, scary liberals trying to turn America into the Soviet Union. (note to self, take Stalin out of closet and place in car for "liberal" carpool violations.)

Ahhh, national health care them thar poor immigants are going to be stealin' all my money with their welfare stealin', baby makin', no tax payin', lounge on their bon bons eatin' wide ass while sittin' on the couch they bought with food stamps.

Shudder, limits on the way business can screw their employees. That the backs of labor needs to have something to say about the capital made from their collective sweat. The business of America ain't only about business but the people who live there too. Workers rights? Oh silly "liberal" stuff.

And finally, damn it if ain't about humanity when the evil, bad government steps in and tell the Univiersity of Alabama that it needed to let blacks attend school.

However, lest I waste any more of my breath, I'll stop now. But before I go, I'll call Montana for ya and make reservations for a nice comfy shack with room for an ammo bunker in the back.

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I took in a movie. An appalling little piece of filth. Its leading lady was a blonde harlot who spent half the film strolling around naked as a jaybird! No, just give the Great Unwashed a pair of oversized breasts and a happy ending, and they'll oink for more every time.
~C. Mongomery Burns

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

He says that Jesse Ventura won't let Pat take the (Whatever it's called) party nomination without a fight. Ventura has some waco ideas of his own, but has said he doesn't want to be president. It will be interesting to see what happens if Pat trys to get that partys nomination. Limbaugh is also an extremist, but he has a good feel for these things, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was right about this one.

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx

The Dem/Libs want everybody to be nice and happy and equal. Which is nice, except that some of them take it too far. Nobody's really equal, and those that excel should be allowed to do so without hindrance.

The Rep/Cons, on the other hand, want to legislate primarily Judeo-Christian morality. Naturally, I have a problem with THAT, too. Sure, they'll get government off your backs... but it'll be coming around to your bedroom real soon now.

Anyways, After hearing about the Jesse Ventura Playboy interview "organized religion is a crutch for weak-minded people," I think I know who _I'M_ writing in.

ElectionMania 2000! OUR Head of State can beat up YOUR Head of State!

*chuckles*

"Uh...huh. Health care for children equals bad. Righto."

That's why I put emphasis on FORCE. If your children don't have health insurance, the government would provide it under this proposed program, whether you want it or not, and we'd all have to pay for it. First, this is NOT in the perview of the national government. The constitution never said anything about providing health insurance. Second, it would be, yet again, the government getting in our back pocket, taking more money to fund a program that shouldn't exist in the first place. Third, the last time I checked, if you go to a hospital and need medical treatment, you're gonna get treatment, whether you can afford it or not. You wouldn't need insurance. The example you gave would have nothing to do with the program, as far as I can tell. If you wanted to let your kids die, you'd need court-ordered psychological treatment, not money.

"What, pray tell, is the problem with health care."

Again, the problem is that it is not in the perview of the national government. If the individual states wanted to set up a health care system themselves, that would be fine by me, but the national government HAS NOT the authority.

"Er...no, not really. Conservatism is the belief that existing social institutions are the best. Liberalism is the belief that social institutions must change to deal with new situations. Most everyone in D.C., Democrat or Republican, is a conservative. They just have faith in differing institutions."

To quote you: Er... no. The definition I gave of conservatism is correct. And those differing institutions: the differences are that creating the institutions liberals believe in would involve increasing the powers of the national government, whereas conservatives wish no institutions created, as they believe the government is far too large already.

Jay:

"That the backs of labor needs to have something to say about the capital made from their collective sweat."

IIRC, isn't that what unions are for?

"Workers rights? Oh silly "liberal" stuff."

Businesses also have rights, you know. Might I suggest that they be allowed to hire people based on ABILITY, instead of being sued if a person who can't do the job and just happens to be black gets fired?

"And finally, damn it if ain't about humanity when the evil, bad government steps in and tell the Univiersity of Alabama that it needed to let blacks attend school."

Again, IT'S NONE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS who a university admits. Universities should be allowed to admit people based on their academic skill, with no discrimination based on race or gender. Something Pat Buchanan pointed out that I actually agree with: at a particular university, the most underrepresented group are white catholics, so why not establish a quota on them, too? If, by some strange coincidece, 98% of the population of a school was white, would you call it a racial prejudice? I'd just say that 98% of the people that had good enough grades to get in happened to be white. It IS possible that there is a prejudice, but if there is, it's still none of the national government's business, unless it violates the constitution.

"But before I go, I'll call Montana for ya and make reservations for a nice comfy shack with room for an ammo bunker in the back."

No, thanks. If you know a good PR man, though, I could use him. I've been thinking of going into politics when I'm old enough. We need SOMEONE that actually does what they think is right.

H.M.S.:

I wouldn't be celebrating. Buchanan could do less damage in the Republican party. He couldn't run next year. Now he'll be running against Bradley and Bush, and could well screw up the election and get Bradley elected. I get the impression that, even if the Reform party won't accept him, he'll run anyway as an independant.

"I can't stand the part of the Republican party that supports universal Christian ideas"

I've heard of these people, but I've never heard what they believe in implementing. Could you tell me?

1of2:

"The Rep/Cons, on the other hand, want to legislate primarily Judeo-Christian morality."

Hey, now! Just because some Republicans want it doesn't mean that ALL Republicans want it. You can't judge a whole group by some of its members. If that were true, we could say that all liberals are lying, cheating, power-abusing, ill-tempered, drug-using mental cases. And not all Republicans are conservative. What laws does this group you're talking about want to pass, anyway? I can't really tell if their ideas are conservative or not without knowing.

"ElectionMania 2000! OUR Head of State can beat up YOUR Head of State!"

*LOL*

Current estimates of the Soviet deathtoll this century:

20 Million in WW1 and the Revolution
20 Million during Lenin's collectivisation
20 Million during Stalin's purges
20 Million during WW2

It cost so much more to buy people in both houses.

There was a bill before the West Virginia legislature a couple of years ago. It would have allowed companies to run test on equipment, and keep the results confidential, even from us(Regulators). The bill was under a lot of public scrutiny, and appeared to dry up and go away. At five minutes to midnight, on the last day the Leg was in, I turned on Public TV, and much to my surprise, the bill was being passed in one house. A runner took the bill to the other house, but the speaker let time run out, and never brought the bill up for a vote.

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx

"Again, IT'S NONE OF THE GOVERNMENT'S BUSINESS who a university admits. Universities should be allowed to admit people based on their academic skill, with no discrimination based on race or gender."

In reference to the admission of blacks to the University of Alabama, I couldn't disagree with that piece of divel less. The state of Alabama did discriminate aginst a segment of the population and did deny an education based on the single determination of race.

And a government of the people has every right to step in a restore the civil rights of that segment of the people.

"It IS possible that there is a prejudice, but if there is, it's still none of the national government's business, unless it violates the constitution."

And in case you are wondering, that kind of racist crap, oh seperate but equal and keeping citizens from the use of public facilities based on race or gender is un-constitutional.

If you would like to reference the 14th Amendment to the Constitution:

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law, nor deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Guess you missed that part.

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I took in a movie. An appalling little piece of filth. Its leading lady was a blonde harlot who spent half the film strolling around naked as a jaybird! No, just give the Great Unwashed a pair of oversized breasts and a happy ending, and they'll oink for more every time.
~C. Mongomery Burns

On health care:
Omega said that hospitals care for you whether you have money or not. I'm just gonna say that it's not always the case. I can't really cite any specific instances off the top of my head, but it would be ignorant to assume that all hospitals operate on ethics and not on money. But it's not just that. Even if they don't charge you right away, you're gonna get billed eventually if you don't have some sort of health care to pay for the treatments. Poor families can't pay for treatment of cancer, AIDS, or any long-term illnesses, and most likely the hospitals would kick these patients out. What parents in their right mind would not want healthcare for their children? The problem is that a number of them can't pay for it.

On businesses:
If the government didn't regulate businesses, we'd have monopolies running around, uninspected food or drugs, poisoned rivers and ocean, expanding deserts, etc. It'd probably look like Ferenginar, essentially.

Heck, if you don't like communism or Evolution, why are you still watching Star Trek?

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

quote:

---

And in case you are wondering, that kind of racist crap, oh seperate but equal and keeping citizens from the use of public facilities based on race or gender is un-constitutional.

---

Sounds like apartheid.

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"Diplomacy is the art of Internationalising an issue to your advantage"

Field Marshal Military Project
http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net

Here's something else I don't like "Heck, if you don't like communism or Evolution, why are you still watching Star Trek?".

I don't know, he watches because its about hope for the future and mankind loving each other, or perhaps a Communist system that actually works (so called Marxist Communism was had only a passing relation to what Marx stated as the perfect Communist system, honestly I would prefer the Star Trek type Communism to current Capitalism, but it ain't going happen). Or perhaps he doesn't watch Star Trek and likes to talk about stuff about Trek. I know I don't watch Trek anymore, but I still go around here (the evil thing called "Real Life" happened). Anyway why do people have to have reasons for watching Trek that are exactly what the productors wanted, I thought Trek was about individuality too, or do we exactly have to have the opinions that Trek has just to watch it.

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HMS White Star (your local friendly agent of Chaos and a d*mn lucky b*st*rd:-) )

With the rise in power of organizations like the Klan, there were concerted efforts to remove the black from public mixture with whites. Going to the extent of revocation of voting rights, exclusion from public universities of note, and segration in the public elementary schools (the now famous seperate but equal way of learning). In a very real sense the south had an instituted, however informal, policy of apartheid.

This county has struggled since its inception with the far reaching inclusion of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the equality stated in documents of the like, and the irrational hatred of the so called hyphenated Americans or those who are non white, non anglo, jewish, or too Catholic. The twisted minds of some of our best hatemongers have always reserved the most hostility for those members of our society on the margins.

Today, the movement of such organizations has come to include a distrust and animosity not only toward those marginalized groups and towards the Government itself. Moreover, they have started to couch their rhetoric in ultra-nationalistic terms. Like say, oh Pat Buchanan.

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Oh, meltdown. It's one of those annoying buzzwords. We prefer to call it an unrequested fission surplus.
~C. Mongomery Burns

Geez, do I really have to spell everything out so that someone doesn't reply on the stuff that doesn't really matter? I avoided stating the obvious, which is that he'd probably never experienced being part of the minority (and it's the experience that counts, not the fact that he'd be a minority if he qualified for all of those). I was pointing out the fact that he wouldn't know what it's like to live without health care or decent living conditions or among people who think he don't belong in this country.

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.