The Republican candidates in an Iowa debate stated that their major political influence was Jesus Christ. This is bull fecal matter! That is a violation of the seperation of church and state.

Likewise, Christmas and Easter being federal holidays is as well.

Feel free to flame me with your flames of hell!

I know First of Two is on my side :-)

In former times, the church was the state. If I and my conquering horde rode into town and conquered your people, one of the first items on the agenda (right after raping, pillaging, and burning) would be to either tear down your temple and carry off your "gods" (idols, statues, whatever) into captivity, or the destruction of said gods and the installation of our own gods in your temple.

Until relatively recently in Britain, you had to be a member of the Anglican church to hold public office or practice law. In some cultures, failing to worship the approved deity (or pantheon) in the prescribed method could get you killed. At the very best, not adhering to the "official" religion meant you were not allowed to vote, might not be allowed to own property, and would be restricted from associating with certain people.

The First Amendment reads as follows:

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Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Congress can't declare any religion to be the "official" religion of the U.S. It can't prevent you from joining any religion you want, and it can't force you to join one either. They can't stop you from expressing your religion as your conscience dictates, either (the free exercise thereof). At the time, this idea was (quite literally) revolutionary.

In conclusion, if a bunch of people want to elect a person to public office based on the supposition that since he says he's one of them, he'll do things they like, there's no law against it. Even when religion is not an issue, that's the way people vote.

The law exists so when Joe Ultra-Fundamentalist is elected, he can't pass any law making Ultra-Fundamentalism the official religion, and you can't get certain jobs without being an official member. If he tries to anyway, the Supreme court will rule the law unconstitutional.

--Baloo

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When only the police have guns, it's called a police state.
-- Bumper Sticker
http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm

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2.) I suspect the whole thing to be merely a case of pathetic pandering to the Religious Right (ooh, nice alliteration!) for political purposes.

For the record, I count among my philosophical influences: Robert Heinlein, Carl Sagan, Cheryl Carter-Kern, Bob Farquhar, Socrates, Gary Larson, and Mark Twain.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Second point, though. Why does no one say this about Al and Bill when they mention their claimed Christianity? Or complain when Hilary lies about Jesus by saying he was homeless?

As for mine, Jesus, Rush Limbaugh, and Ronald Regan.

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Dis, The Nether Regions

I take it you mean to say, my problem with "Christianity" as such and as it is and has been...

Do you really want a list?

Shall I start with the corruption of the original Christian doctrines amid the scrabbling of the petty factions vying for power in the early centuries after Jesus's death?

Shall I enumerate everything from the murder of Hypatia and the destruction of history's greatest repository of learning, the Library at Alexandria, at the exhortation of a man who is now canonized a saint, down through the Crusades and the Inquisition and the European and American witch hunts, to the present day smarmy hypocracy of the televangelist and the pathetic apathy of those who do NOT oppose them?

Or shall I go scriptural, and describe the many ways in which out-and-out murder is permissible, according to the Bible, even AFTER the advent of Christianity? Shall I let everyone know what Jepthah, biblical hero, did to his daughter? And for what? Shall I argue over the merits of the "divine mercy" shown to Job's children, or the apparently obvious mindset of a God who gives a near-omnipotent evil being free reign over His creations? ("Here's my masterpiece. Go on, SMASH IT!")

Shall I go personal, and admit that I used to be like you, untill I finally had accumulated enough experiences of senseless pain and death and suffering to realize that NOBODY was looking after us?

Do you REALLY want to go there?

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

All the atrocities mentioned were not commited by people following the teachings of Christ. They just claimed the name. Like the televangelists. There are always wolves in sheep's clothing. False prophits, as it were.

"many ways in which out-and-out murder is permissible, according to the Bible, even AFTER the advent of Christianity?"

Can't think of a single one. Enlighten me.

As for Job, more like "Here's my masterpiece. Go ahead and try to smash it. You will fail." And all the stuff that happened to Job was no different than the things that happen every day everywhere. God let it happen, but there was a reason. Good things came of the bad things.

"Shall I go personal, and admit that I used to be like you, untill I finally had accumulated enough experiences of senseless pain and death and suffering to realize that NOBODY was looking after us?"

You think I haven't had problems? I just realize that all bad things that happen have a reason. We survived the Cuban missile crisis, and you think no one's watching over us?

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What utter nonsense. You don't want to head in that direction with me. Really you don't.

Tell me what the divine reason is for systematic child abuse. Tell me why a omniscient being couldn't find a way for the Israelites to share the promised land with the former inhabitants without genocide. Divine for us the wonder of Cystic Fibrosis, Spina Bifida, and Amylotrophic Lateral Sclerosis. Explain to me why a good, friendly, nice young woman should take half an hour to bleed to death after being impaled by a bit of metal in a car crash. Give praise and thanks for Ebola, Malaria, Typhus, Cholera, Smallpox, Bubonic Plague, and Hantavirus, for the Lord God Made Them All.

And you know what? I don't CARE if the people who committed those historical (and present-day) atrocities weren't "real" Christians. (Isn't that a convenient excuse? "Oh, nooooo! It wasn't US, it was the DARK CHRISTIANS!" everytime they want to get away scot-free with something...) For one thing, they sure seemd to THINK they were the "real thing," and for another, and vastly more important... the "real" Christians, where were THEY? They sure as Hell weren't on the front lines, leading the opposition, saying "you can't DO this in the name of our God!" THAT'S what I meant by APATHY.

GO watch the B5 fifth-season episode "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari." Watch it very carefully. It contains very important lessons for you, as I interpret it. Cartagia represents the "dark" Christians. Londo, your "good" Christians. G'Kar, myself and people like me throughout history. You'll get a hint of what I think about them, and what I want.

Hm. I see we're heading in two parallel directions here, partly the Argument against Christianity in general, and partly the argument against God in particular. Either is sufficient. Both might be a bit much for one thread to handle.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

*flash of inspiration*

Got an explination that may seem simpler.

I think God operates under something similar to the prime directive that He's imposed on Himself. No interference. I think it's similar to what the 'Trek PD should be. For instance, how could stopping an asteroid with a well-placed torpedo interfere with the natural development of a civilization? Stopping a war, on the other hand, would. A war is caused by people, and they can choose to end it any time they want. It's that darned free will thing again.

As for the "real" Christian thing, if they don't at least try to follow the teachings of Jesus, they ain't Christians, no matter what they call themselves. Do you think Christ would have condoned the Crusades? Oh, and there were no (or at least very few) "real" Christians, as you call them, at the time. Remember, the Catholic church controlled the information. If you want to blame someone for those atrocities, pick on them.

Don't think B5 is shown around here. I'll keep an eye out, though.

Do you mean God in general, and Christianity in particular, or am I missing something? (Not trying to nitpick, just curious.)

You may not have a choice, because that IS frequently the answer.

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Dis, The Nether Regions

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

Oh, and before someone brings up the fact that God interfered with the Isrealites, they already knew about Him. Everyone did, to begin with, but almost everyone left Him or forgot. The reason the Hebrews were special was that they never forgot God, and if they did, someone who did remember reminded them.

As for biblical people and Israel. There is more than one good jew who really wasn't. David for one. Israel didn't even worship God for most of it's existance. The United Kingdom is the only time until after the Exile that they truly worshipped God. Ezra and Nehemiah finally got Isarel to worship God for good, but later they got too legalistic. You can see all this in Judges and any book that contains passages about the divided kingdom.

I am very interested First if you would tell us how Paul corrupted Christ's teaching. If you want to try to start a new, trully Christian church I'll join it.

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If the laws of the land were given to a society should not we take the laws away now?