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Sol: You said that Islam's belief is that "God is absolutely nothing at all like us. Hence, such a trinity is rather blasphemous." But if I'm correct (and I may be wrong, I don't claim to be an expert on Islam), Muslims accept the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament) as holy scripture. Presumably that would include Genesis 1:27, which reads, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him." If you and I are both correct, there seems to be an inconsistancy here... Hmmm...
"Of course, you are free to doubt the divine nature of the Qur'an." Why thank you for affirming my rights! As I said in my last post, since none of us can prove ourselves correct here, it all comes down to where you place your faith. I reiterate my question: Are you willing to bet your (eternal) life that you're right and everyone else is wrong?
DT: Nice parenthetical comment there ("it's you people that lead me to be a self-described athiest who believes in a supreme being") but please don't blame me for the fact that someone who happens to believe what I believe treated you poorly in the past. That's like blaming a person for a racist attack because they're the same race as the attackers. I do look forward to your reply on the issue though.
Omega: Thanks for the Amen! I'll pass on arguing the accuracy of Biblical prophecy versus that of other so-called holy books. Here's a better proof that a person's religious beliefs/faith/spirituality is real: Is your life better in every way now than it was before you believed? Mine is, and no one can argue with that!
------------------ Dane
"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7
[This message has been edited by Dane Simri (edited December 31, 1999).]
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Well, my life goes rather nicely as well. Things work out for me, I have enough money to keep my caffeine addiction in check...all in all, I'm rather well off.
Regarding Islam, they do believe that Moses and Jesus were divinely inspired, and they do accept portions of the Torah and the Gospels. (Hence the Jews and the Christians often being refered to as the People of the Book.) But as to which specific portions are included, I couldn't say.
Now I'm going to horribly overgeneralize here, but I'd imagine Christianity, in the eyes of Islam, is viewed rather like Judaism is viewed by many Christians. Well-meaning, but not quite getting the whole picture.
One other thing; I think your approach towards conversion is a little misguided, Dane. If Christianity is meant to appeal to people, it has to be because it is true. This "what if" business is nonsense, because it can be applied equally to any belief system. There are probably several hundred religions out there. The odds of picking the right one are rather small. What if the Branch Davidians had the right idea? Or Morgan whatshisname and his Heaven's Gate folks? No, any attempt to convert cannot be grounded in the what if argument because such an argument has no foundation. Besides, faith through fear is no faith at all, is it? Why else grant humans free will?
------------------ "20th Century, go to sleep." -- R.E.M.
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(I was glad to see when I logged on this morning that the Internet hadn't exploded over Y2K. Since Al Gore invented the silly thing, I suppose we have him to thank.)
Sol, you make several excellent points. But I think perhaps I've misrepresented myself a little bit. You said that my "approach towards conversion is a little misguided." If you've seen my postings as attempts to convert anyone, you've missed my point. I'm merely trying to correct misinformation about Christianity when I see it pop up, and point out that, in the end, everyone has to make a decision -- based upon faith -- as to which basket to place all of their eternal eggs in.
You said, "This 'what if' business is nonsense." If by "this what if business" you mean my urging people to consider the eternal consequences of choosing incorrectly, I would adamantly disagree. I think one of the most valuable questions a person can ask himself is, "What if I died right now, found myself standing before God, and heard Him ask, 'Why should I let you into my Heaven?' What would I say?"
Free will to decide our eternal fate is a tremendous gift, but like all such gifts, comes with a tremendous responsibility. That responsibility is to make sure you know the facts before you make your decision. Some, by their postings on this thread, have shown that they don't have all the facts straight on Christianity. I've only tried to correct that.
Oh, and I'm also trying to help DT get rid of the "Member" designation in favor of something more interesting.
------------------ Dane
"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7
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Sol didn't say the "what if" question itself is nonsense, but asking it in terms of Christianity IS. You could substitute any deity for the word "God," and the question would basically remain the same, but useless to you because it's no longer the Christian God. What if you died and saw Zeus in heaven? Or Ra? What if you died and reincarnated? It's a thought-provoking question, yes, but hardly an earth-moving one.
------------------ --Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant? --I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?
James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
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*Besides the idea Muslims believe the White Man was created by an evil scientist*
Most OT prophesy came true, or it's supposed to later. I am not going to comment further because it's a tough argument in person much less internet.
--WARNING!!-- I AM working on a major in Bible and maybe a minor in philosophy, and later a Master's. I will have a whole lot of stuff to throw out in the future. Stuff most of you will be scratching your head's at. ---
May I suggest reading the bio of C.S. Lewis, or the well know story of Josh McDowell if your looking for stories on convertion (sp.) and proof.
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of course, with the proper interpretation, one can submit the proposition that all the activities contained in the book of Revelations were fulfilled in the time of Nero.
And, there remain the occasional discrepancies between OT prophecies and what the NT says actually happened during the time of Jesus, (although these are always cleverly claimed to be errors in translation, usually by the same people who claim that the Bible is infallible.)
Prophecy, especially couched in obscure and often mis-and-retranslated phrasings, is open to a multitude of interpretations, and a clever mind will be able to see myriad ways in which they have "come true." Witness the plethora of works about the so-called Prophecies of Nostradamus.
In fact, I daresay a number of SF writers have had prediction rates approaching the "accuracy" of the Bible. And some of THEM actually gave approximate dates, a feat which the Bible remains completely incapable of.
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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It will get me any church I would ever want to pastor. Plus, I could teach.
And the most accurate NT is in Greek (OT Hebrew), and can only be properly translated by people who look at everything and not those who just pick and choose whatever word they want to use.
Oh, while on the subject, the recent Bibles that have come out like the Message and others PARAPHRASES are bad. Be careful what you are reading. NRSV is considered the best. Any version of the King James' is outdated.
Bryce (and everyone else): Keep in mind that there are some who have been indoctrinated into the belief that the King James version of the bible (henceforth abbreviated as KJB, not to be confused with the New King James version) is the ONLY correct version of the bible in existence.
I suppose that means if you don't read (King James') English, you'll never know the real truth?
References to the KJB sometimes pushes my buttons. My grandma was convinced that only this version of the bible was correct. Why did she believe this? Because she had been taught to.
I understand that the KJB was actually a paraphrase of the Bishop's bible that was in use at that time. It was written in Middle English, and was difficult to understand by most of King James' contemporaries. Calling it a paraphrase means that they did not examine archival texts of the various books in the original languages. Rather, they (whoever paraphrased the KJB) examined the text line by line, and rendered the nearest equivalent in (for them) modern English.
While there is a place for paraphrased texts (Reader's Digest, anyone?) I don't like to use a paraphrased Bible for reference, since the meanings are necessarily suspect and imprecise. If I had a talent for languages (sadly, I don't) I would prefer to have my texts in the original languages.</Tangent>
--Baloo
------------------ EXPERIENCE, n. The wisdom that enables us to recognize as an undesirable old acquaintance the folly that we have already embraced. --Ambrose Bierce Come Hither and Yawn...[/B]
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Bryce, not to make mountains out of molehills or anything, but that statement of yours was perhaps one of the only truely offensive things I've ever seen here. I find it hard to believe that you entertain such notions while studying religion. Just how far along in your studies are you, anyway? I'd like to believe that your comment came from naivete rather than the more obvious and sinister motive.
------------------ "20th Century, go to sleep." -- R.E.M.
[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited January 02, 2000).]
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Baloo: There are many Bibles translated and some that are paraphrased. What you said is a major problem in the church today, people are reading words that are not supposed to be there. I was just making random statements in that last paragraph, sorry to confuse you. The KJV was either taken from the Vulgate, Wycliffe's Bible, the Matthew Bible or something else. The problem with the KJV is it is so old and uses English no one speaks anymore, it reads nicely, but it is not accurate any longer.
Sol: What statement? If its about the Bibles its just the opinion held by many theologians today. Every professor in the department at my school would make the same statement I did. Many of those professors have translated the Bible more than once for different versions. I had only good intentions, also.
I was simply trying to answer for the statements First made in the post above mine. And I am not far along, I have 23 hrs.
------------------ Peace on Earth
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited January 02, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited January 02, 2000).]
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I think Sol was thinking about "*Besides the idea Muslims believe the White Man was created by an evil scientist*" which I certainly hope was a misguided attempt at humor.
------------------ It's no use. I guess I'll have to leave all my money to the Egg Advisory Council. Eggs have gotten quite a bad rap lately, you know, Smithers. ~C. Montgomery Burns
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Okay... I haven't been checking up on this thread in a few days, though I wish I had... it's actually gotten kind of interesting.....
Anyway, I just want to back up Dane and Omega's statements that their lives are better now than they EVER were before they believed... that is SO true for me. I always believed, but I never truly ACCEPTED it... I never placed my faith in it.... but since I have, things have just been amazing for me.
And Sol.... as for your post about how you think life is just fine right now even without God, so did I... I truly thought that my life was grand... but since I've accepted Christ and begun my relationship with Him, things have gotten even better than I ever could have imagined.
Anyway.. I just wanted to say that...... take it however wanted.. .I know everyone will anyway
~LOA
------------------ "The battle is raging inside my weary heart screaming for me to let it all go... My body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore... the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM
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