First of Two: The questions didn't NEED to be raised, but they were. God would have been perfectly happy (and so would Humanity) if Satan had never rebelled (incidently, the names Satan and Devil mean 'liar' and 'slanderer'). Had Adam and Eve resisted temptation, the question would've been answered then and there and Satan would've been destroyed immediately.

Angels do have free will. The fact that Satan rebelled and many angels followed him makes that point all too clear. God doesn't create flawed things, only things with the ability to choose.

And the next two questions answer themselves: The fact that God is infallible and the fact that He created everything gives Him the right to determine what's best for everything. Fortunately for us, He's a loving God so it really is best for us.

Why can't creatures of as developed an intellect as Humans recognize a superior authority? The Bible says that Satan desired worship for himself. He wasn't satisfied with the position he was given. I think greed would almost be a better word than pride, but I think it's more than that too.

Sol System: Satan wasn't unleashed in 1914, he was kicked out of Heaven in 1914. He hasn't been bound or released yet. The purpose of getting him out of the way for the 1000 years (which, again, hasn't happened yet) is to give Earth and Humanity a chance to get to the condition that God wanted it to be in the first place, a paradise filled with a perfect Human family. That's what Adam and Eve were told to do. Once Humanity has reached that point, we'll all have to make the choice that Adam and Eve both failed: Do we, as perfect people, want to obey God or not?

Bryce: You're right. Figuring out dates is in prophesy is very complex (sometimes they're not there to figure out) btu Daniel does contain a sinilar prophesy to the one in Isaiah. They both talk about the end of the System of Things. Also, the terms "Babylon" and "Babylon the Great" in Revelation refer, not to the literal nation of Babylon, but to the world of false religion in general. You'll notice an allegiance between Babylon and "The Beast", or world government. In the past decades and centuries, we've seen this happen.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

We're heading into Nostradamusland again... that's the trouble with 'deliberately making your prophesys vague (or vaguer, as the case usually is) to pass by the authorities,' a hundred years down the road nobody will know for sure WHAT you were talking about, and great fools will make lots of money with fallacious interpretations.

Personally, given information I've heard that John was a member of a sect that believed in gaining insight to God through pharmeseutical enhancement, I think he just had too many happy shrooms that day and wrote down his trip.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

*shakes head because he is dealing with unbelievers and a believer taught differently than him*

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Peace on Earth
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If anyone here feels so attached to me that they would like to name something in my honor please contact Asbury College and donate money for furniture in the new Kinlaw Library. :)

The ones I'm talking about are the prophesies of the 70 weeks of years found at Daniel 9:24-27 and the "7 Times" which is in chap 4 I think.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

He didn't say "he'll stop worshipping you and worship ME instead."

And the fact that God instructed Satan to go out and torment Job as much as he could, and then that feeble response Job gets when he asks God why He's done such a thing, says much more about God's 'negative attitude' than it does about Satan or Job.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Another way to look at is this: The Bible says that you are either on God's side or you aren't. There is no grey area. Therefore if Satan is interfering with God's arrangement, he is God's enemy as well as those he torments in the process. The same could be said of wicked Humans.

God, however, instead of destroying Satan or just saying "No you're wrong, leave him alone" allowed Job to prove his point for Him. God knew that He was able to reverse anything Satan might do to Job. He also told Satan the one thing He wouldn't allow was for Satan to take Job's life. I wouldn't call this negativity. I would call it faith in your creation.

There's also a difference between instructing Satan to torment Job and allowing it. God doesn't test His creation with evil methods.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

And I don't think God ever destroys any of his creations. Even Satan.

I think one problem with all these propehcies is that we're dealing with non-linear time. Sort of like the Prophets in DS9, but done right. All of these things happen at the same time as far as God's concerned. It's like a chess game, with the different files being different time frames, and living pieces. Jesus came when He did because that was the optimal time for Him to come. The most strategic move with the ultimate Queen. "Mate in 5.6*10ex32 moves. Check." Satan knows he'll loose. He may not admit it, but he does know it on some level.

Here's a philosophical question: if Satan repented, would God forgive him?

Oh, and that is an interesting philosophical question. He would have to forgive, wouldn't He? Just to live up to His own press?

As a matter of fact, I once wrote a little storyboard outline to this effect.

Lucifer (I like the name better than "Satan," it's just more poetic as well as more what I think his true role was, the Lightbringer, Prometheus) suddenly appears atop Jumonville. (For those of you who don't know it, Jumonville is atop a mountain down here, and hosts a large Methodist campground, and a giant white metal cross that can be seen for miles.) Up in the great meadow where the cross stands, he draws this giant firely circle folled with symbols and such. It's a Summoning, where L is basically trying to make contact with the big G. He plays music, trying to attract attention, and watches the sky. (I got the Idea while listening to Peter Gabriel's "Come Talk To Me" of the 'Us' album, Here's a bit

*I can imagine the moment
Breaking out through the silence
All the things that we both might say
And the heart it will not be denied
Till we're both on the same damn side
All the barriers blown away

I said please talk to me
Won't you please come talk to me
Just like it used to be
Come on, come talk to me*

In the end, though, nothing happens. There's no answer. Dejected, Lucifer walks away, but deigns to have a short conversation with a human who happened to be present, when he reveals that he's been tired of the constant conflict for a long time... more than a thousand years... and tries this every hundred years.

I never got around to writing the actual story, though.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

A logical end to repenting would most likely mean the destruction of the known universe, because a switch to Genesis 1 is impossible for mankind to consider. God on the other hand...

First: Job is regarded by the majority of conservative Wesleyan scholars to be fictional, it merit is in what it says to the believer, not in its historical truthfulness.

Aban: After looking at the passage in question and my OT notes from last semester I have the answer. The passage refers to the length of the Exile and the reign of Antiochus IV, Ephinanes (sp.) It is a prophecy for the Jewish people that has already occurred. the Awful Horrror is the pig Antiochus sacrificed in the Temple. If I have this right Antiochus was killed sometime after the sacrifice and eventually Israel gained its independence.
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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited January 28, 2000).]

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Come on guys, what was any different in those 1,000 years you were talking about as apposed to any other years: nothing!