Unfortunatly, a racist doesn't want to be changed to a non-racist either.

By and large, people don't want God to change them. They are the way they, either because they believe they are right, or are ignorant, or endless other possabilities that Psychology students can discuss for well over a week.

Bryce actually made a fair enough point. He believes that homosexuality is a sin, but one that will be forgiven. That's placing it on the same level as people who believe in sex before marriage, for example.

There are many Christians who will ignore certain rules, such as sex before marriage, or contraception, because they don't agree with them. I would say that this doesn't make them "less-Christian". God gave us free will. If he wanted us to believe him about everything all the time, he'd make us (probably by the smiting thing. He likes that). But he doesn't. So I belive that not only have we got a right to choose whether we believe him or not, but that we've also got a right to believe in him, and still disagree.

Oh, and about "It has been scientifically proven that women chemically bond in their minds to the men they have sex with."

I'll take Sol's "Okkkaaayyyy" and raise you a "huh?".

So, women who, er, get out a lot, basically have an entire office full of men's chemicals floating around in their head?

And it's not men's chemicals it's chemicals they produce themselves.

To answer the question:
I don't see why religion cannot be compatible with a gay lifestyle. There are, however, a few (maybe many) religions that find the gay lifestyle uncompatible with it.

I must admit it would be nice if there was an example of a gay person in the Judo-Christian Bible, but in the time the Bible was composed it was not a social issue as it is today. I wonder if Greco-Roman mythology would have a more definate answer (for you, I think I have a definite answer) on the matter?

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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited June 11, 2000).]

Males tend to have one of two reactions to females they have sex with:

1. They bond, too.

2. They get a serious case of claustrophobia and want out of the relationship by whatever means proves most effective (chewing off a limb is not out of the question).

I've had both reactions. I suspect that the bonding thing happens with women, since it happens to men. The "flee at all costs" reaction may be a possibility for women, as well, but I've never heard of it.
</hijack>

~~Baloo

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Beer lovers take note:
Stroh's spelled backwards is "shorts."

http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/

BTW, my paper is due June 19, so I have time still to read and read lots of opinions. So far, this has been helpful to my project, and it gives me an insight on how far times have changed. But I have a question to ask everyone: Does that mean that I should not come out of the closet to my family or to my Church? From what I've found out so far, doing so would prevent me from going to my Catholic Church and a deportation back to the Philippines.

Before anyone answers, I'll give some background info on my family life.
My father is gay, or so my mother says all the time. My mother is a devoted Catholic, and thinks that the Roman Catholic system is being underminded by the devil, the Jewish people, and by other outside forces. Basically my mother is paranoid and has entered her religious phase of her life. She thinks that anyone not Roman Catholic will go to hell.

I considered telling my family, but now I'm thinking doing so could complicate my life. It's bad enough I have to deal with being a gay Catholic and the fact that I'm not telling an important part of my life to my family.

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Cigar Girl- "Would you like to check my figures?"

James Bond- "I'm sure that they are very well rounded..."

< return to antagonist mode >Okay, back to the pre-marital sex thing. So you consider the actual ceremony to be the marraige start, eh? If you go by the bible, the first marraige ceremony didn't happen for about 2 thousand years. And where in the bible state that pre-marital sex is sinful? If two people were engaged for a time, know they are to be married, and wish to know each other on a more personal basis, would that be considered sinful? They are to become life-long mates (if they aren't already). Do you really need the "legality" of it? You each consider yourselves already married, the piece of paper is just a formality so that you can claim each other on your taxes. And with all the rampant divorce in the world today (I have heard of a man who went through three wives in a year), the legality of the marraige is based on less than the spirituality of marraige. Would you not consider a loveless marraige used just to bring someone into the country to be sinful? (It's based on deceit) How about to decrease your taxes (I've heard of it, it's also based on deceit)? It seems that the legal document is just a formality these days, to a point where it's almost pointless. I'm getting married in two weeks, but we've been together for three years, engaged for two and a half years, and living together for two. Would you consider us sinners, or just a man and wife in spirit waiting for the legal signing of the papers. (Which is what we believe. The piece of paper is just that, our marraige is based on much more.)< /return to antagonist mode >

Oh by the way, it's Numbers 20:13, not 13:20. Sorry, It's been a while since I looked up the phrase.

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Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

If you use an OT passage to define whether an action is a sin or not, then you must neccessarily use the proscribed punishment from the same text, since, by using the former passage, you commit yourself to believing in the 'correctness' of said text. One needs must follow the other, A leads to B and all, if one is to reason in a rational manner. Anything else is picking-and-choosing what to believe and what to discard, which is hypocracy.

(The short version): You can't say "Oh, I don't believe in anything in Leviticus except these three passages..."

(Digression)
*Leviticus. sounds like one of Megatron's pals.*
(/Digression)

If, on the other hand, you confine yourself to everything the NT says about it, you have:
1)JC's not saying anything about it at all.
2)The meandering ramblings of Paul, who himself is basing his mutterings on this topic on OT law rather than anything JC said. Of course, IMHO, he does this a lot anyway.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

As for the Jewish Nation, if they believe in the Torah (OT) and shun the NT, then they should be still abiding by the OT Rule.

It's like the real life punishment of sins. In Arab Nations, they used to cut off the hand of the thief, yet how many cases of that do you see today? It is still a sin, but the price has changed. Gunfights were rampant 150 years ago to settle disputes, but today, every dispute can be settled in a court and it is illegal to settle with a duel.

In this example, the OT Sins still apply, yet the NT covenant is used to pay for the price of the sins. This is why Christian Churches still display the Ten Commandments. Elsewise, what rules would we have?

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Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

You can eat lobster, clam, and pork now.
You don't have to go out in the countryside and dig a latrine to go potty anymore.
You can wear 50% cotton, 50% polyester.
You don't have to be circumcised anymore. (And don't tell me that's not a big one, God almost croaked Moses because of it, in Exodus.)

I'm sure there are a few others, probably some more important ones, which I've forgotten to mention, but you get the gist.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

The potty question is answered by our modern plumbing. We can go potty, and the pipes will take our unclean waste away from our home. Obviously this is to protect our home from unclean wastes (diseases and such)

50%cotton50%polyesther, well, if we are sinning (as I said before, there is no passage that rebukes the original statute), well, than we are all truly sinners.

As for the circumcision question, most Christian Males are still circumcised in the first week of their life. I think the numbers are in the high 80%-mid90% range. So it seems the standard still stands, though the church is always open to new members, and uncircumcised males are still allowed to repent and live through Jesus Christ. However, the Church will not cast someone out because they are not circumcised (Of course, they don't check every male anymore- possible sexual abuse charges just don't look good for priests :P)

The Bible never specifically states that these are not sins anymore, so if you devoutly believe in the Bible, you may still consider these sins. And yes, I do know some people who still consider these to be sins (Mostly Jewish, some Christians.)

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Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

First, the sins have never changed just the punishment. Levi priests had to sacrifice for themselves and everyone else. Jesus just sacrificed for us, just once, because He was perfect.
II Cor. 5:21 Maybe that will help you understand? All of God's laws were meant for the benefit of His people, they were being attacked spiritually. Jesus came to teach the Jews, and the Holy Spirit came to protect those Jews (Christians) who believed in Christ. Christ's sacrifice with the protection of the Spirit prevents God's people from being attacked. You could think of it like God's people received a better insurance plan with Christianity and the New Testament.

Michael, considering your family I would not come out. I have no clue, of course, how hard that maybe but I wouldn't strain your relationship with your mother, someday she maybe all you have.

By the way, I am taking a Torah class in the Fall.

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Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

(That's choosing 8 Catholics BTW. I have asked around amoungst other Christians, and found very few who were circumcised at birth. I did get hit a few times though for asking. Probably not best to walk up to people in McDonalds and say "so, you had the old snip snip then?").