I pose the question that I asked in another thread: why would you not accord a child the rights accorded to all human beings simply because of the minor difference that it is not born yet? Give me one reason why an unborn child should not be considered a member of the human race, entitled to all the rights and privelages thereof.

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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
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quote:

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Abortions for none!
Boo!
Alright... Abortions for everyone!
Boo!
Hmm... Abortions for some, little American flags for others!
Yeah!

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I personally am against abortions. Don't ask to give reasons, cause you won't get any. *L* I just think that a person is a person the moment they are conceived.

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"Remeber, if there is a nuclear explosion, be sure to close your windows as the massive heat could cause objects within your home to catch fire".

Wise, wise words.

Why am I for abortion? I've already said why, but I'll reitieriate here: I'm pro-choice. This does not mean "abortions for all." This means I feel the option should be left open for consideration if the person chooses. Five years ago, my mother told me that had she not had an abortion in 1970, I'd've had an older half-sibling. Wow. I had a girlfriend who was raised Southern Baptist, who personally did not believe in abortion, but was pro-choice because she recognized that her beliefs were no better or worse than another's. As a man, I don't really think what I feel matters. I just know I want that option to be available to my wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister so that SHE can make the choice about HER own body.

I cannot say that I personally would advocate or NOT advocate an abortion. It's a case-by-case basis for me. If any female in my life came to me looking for advice on the decision, I would ask for the facts at had, aske her why she was considering it, & then advise thusly. Such is the way of the rabbi...heh. Seriously, though...I cannot say, "No, don't get an abortion because it's immoral." That's not my place, nor is it my place to make a decision for someone on a subject I couldn't possibly have any knowledge on.

Fly me to Sweden for an operation, let me get knocked up, & then I'll tell you how I feel.

In any case, an embryo is arguably not human at the moment of conception, any more than my fingernails are. It does, however, reach that consciousness hurdle relatively early on in the pregnancy. (As defined by brainwave activity. First it has to develop a brain, of course.) Before this point, I see little to debate about. After it, things get a bit tricky.

However, there is a difference between my personal ethics and those I am willing to see imposed upon society. While I may find abortion as birth control to be more than a bit repulsive, I find the concept of the government taking the decision out of the hands of the attending doctors to be far worse.

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It's not my birthday
It's not today
It's not my birthday so why do you lunge out at me?
--
They Might Be Giants
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Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! I'll give you a cookie.

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Ex-Admin at the TrekBBS.com

While I agree that it contains the potential to be a human, so does every sperm and egg you possess. That doesn't mean you should go out and start rodgering women every night.

By 20 weeks though, it is almost inarguably contains some form of consciousness. At 4 weeks, it almost certainly doesn't. It's the time in between that's tricky, as it's impossible to say "Right here. Here's where it becomes a person"

I'd drop the limit down as low as it can possibly go while still being practical. OTOH, I'd also say that in certain situations, abortions over that limit should be allowed, but again, only up to a (higher) time limit.

But it's a tricky situation. One even harder to argue over than guns, because it's much harder to measure.

Suppose some poor girl got *ahem* raped by a psychomaniac and got pregnant by him. If she chooses to have an abortion, I would not object. It would be insulting to add an additional burden to an already victimized person.

Suppose there is a problem with the pregnancy and there is a risk that the mother and baby will die unless the mother has an abortion. I would not object.

You could say the same thing about Hellen Keller as a child, yet I don't think anyone would say that she wasn't human. A child born a vegetable is the same way, yet they are human, are they not?

I agree with Tahna's possible exceptions. Obviously, the second treats the child as a human being, as it should. The first gives me pause, but I'd still go along with it. I'd probably try and talk the woman out of it, but I think she should have that choice under those circumstances.

"While I agree that it contains the potential to be a human, so does every sperm and egg you possess."

Not true. If you leave a zygote alone in optimal conditions, it has the capability to become anything you or I could be. If you leave a sperm cell alone in optimal conditions, it'll be dead within a week.

"an embryo is arguably not human at the moment of conception, any more than my fingernails are."

But it WILL become a human. Why should you not give it the benefit of the doubt and call it a human, too?

As for something's 'potential' to become human/intelligent... Someday, cows might become sentient. What if you're eating the great*10th grandfather of the first talking cow?

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Your point about miscarrages is good (but one wonders exactly how someone would count unrecorded miscarrages). Perhaps I should have said that without outside interference, there's a very good chance that it will become an undisputed human being.

And what IS optimal conditons eh? Are you saying that optimal conditions for a zygote are within the womb or an artificial womb? Because I'd say optimal conditions for a sperm would include an egg.

A zygote is designed to grow into a human. A sperm is designed to fertalise an egg. They're the same thing, just at different points on the track.

Do human beings have an innate 'right to exist,' (I know the U.S. Declaration of Independence says so, but... so?) and is that right more innate to man than it is to any other life form? And if so, why? And does any authority other than Man recognize this so-called right? (*Rolls Magic 8-Ball...* My sources say 'no.')

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

But on another note, I'd say Hellen Keller was able to reason and was aware of her surroundings. She still had 3 of her 5 senses and could figure out what various smells meant as well as where things were by touch. Just because she couldn't hear or see doesn't mean that her brain didn't work like any other child's.

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.