posted
"The Government of the United States is responsible for:
a) Lt Calley's actions b) The forceful relocation of Native Americans against their will"
Do you believe that the current government is responsible for things done to people, now long dead, by a previous government? If so, what is your proposed solution?
"So, if whomever was running China when Tianamen Square occured left office, you'd be fine with trade relations?"
Yes, if the current dictator Jiang Zamin(SP) left office by whatever means, and the next government did not have a law restricting basic human rights, and had commited no attrocities, then, all other things being equal, I would support trade relations.
"Look at it this way. If Hitler was killed earlier in the war, and Goehrig took over, would it still be the same Nazi Government?"
That would depend on Goehrig's actions and beliefs. With different people in power, a country has different policies and laws, and is therefore a different government. Whether it's one man making them or a group of men doesn't matter.
"First Ammendment. Freedom of Speech. Pretty basic principles on which our country was formed. You really want to be a part of restricting that freedom?"
This question is ambiguous. To what are you refering? The answer to your question is, "No, I would not wish to interfere with a person's right to speak his mind."
"Are more expensive. You keep forgetting about our appeals process, Omega. Retrials cost MONEY."
But would not a person imprisoned for life be entitled to the same number of appeals as a person going to be executed? More, in fact, since he would live longer? If so, would it not follow that life imprisonment is, in fact, more expensive?
"It's not your body, keep your hands off of it."
This statement is ambiguous. Are you saying that a mother should not take any action negatively affecting the body of her unborn child?
"Depends on how you interpret your question, I suppose. I read it to mean that the DNC disregarded the Consitution when it was inconvenient. Kinda stupid to do so, don't you think?"
You are now aware of the question asked. What is your response?
What is your response to the remainder of the questions asked which you did not answer?
------------------ "You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..." - Fraser, "due South"
Let us make one thing very clear here. It's the same godamn GOVERNMENT. Maybe I should say "system of government." Start using terms like "administration", would you KINDLY?
Lt. Calley & Native Americans
What I do not like, is people who condemn other nations for doing the same things that this nation has done, without acknowledging the fact that this nation has done those things. It's blindsided and dangerous.
China
Unless there's a revolution, even if Jiang left office, it'll still be the same government!
I just don't understand why you want to antagonize the Chinese, when the goal should be to make "peace" not "war", unless you really want us to get into a shooting war with China?
Goehrig
This again goes back to how you seem to think that new people in power mean a new government.
The United States of America has had two forms of government (you wouldn't be ignorant of the Articles of Confederation, would you?). We have had, within those two forms of government, forty-plus administrations. Government does not change, admins do. PLEASE, if this is NOT how you view things, tell me so.
Right To Speech
But you've got no problems restricting a man's rights to a counter-argument on the same medium what angered him first appeared? Last I saw, most magazines and newspapers had editorial pages. Do you want these taken away as well?
Appeals
It is my understanding that more appeals are granted to a person on death-row, therefore, no, it would not cost more money to keep someone alive.
Again, you apparently missed the crux of my argument, which is that a life sentence is more punishment than a death sentance. Not like you to go easy on a criminal, why the change of heart?
Consitution
Name some specifics, Omega. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't.
What is your answer to the remainder of the questions asked which you did not answer?
Thanks for asking, Omega. I've though about asking you the exact same thing on many occasions.
Can you describe what you believe would be the social ramifications of programs such as Hillary-Care
Yes, I already answered this one. A better society.
My question was why you assumed this, in fact, was what he meant
I answered this question, and this is what you replied to it. If Rob had said:
Misguided (whatever),
Then I would've assumed on the one specific issue.
Since he used a comma to seperate misguided into its own category, it then becomes a blanket statement. Why would Rob say Democrats are misguided? Could it be because he is not a Democrat, and therefore, those with different political views are misguided?
would it not, therefore, be a method of reducing the number of future murderers?
How so? Many murderers act on spur-of-the-moment, therefore, the possibility that they could be executed for their actions would not occur to them until after, and thus, execution would not serve as a deterent.
The key to preventing murder (well, what you can do, anyway), is social treatment. What people typically kill others? Identify those likely to become a murderer, get them counseling. Keep an eye on them.
abortion
Omega, I thought I've made my views very clear on this. Apparently not.
If you are an individual, it is your body. No one can tell you what to do with it. No one may touch you without your permission. Etcetra, etcetra. Hence: if you're not a woman, and you're not pregnant, keep your fucking laws off of her.
Comprende?
Iran Contra
And I'd be happy too ... soon as you provide evidence that they didn't lie.
Have a nice day, Omega (the Closet Democrat).
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux *** Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
posted
Jeez. All I did was respons to a baseless stereotype with another not-quite-so-baseless, but still pretty much baseless, stereotype. Mine just happened to be a bit longer, thanks to the Clinton administration and my excellent recall.
Still, Omega, you're doing an excellent job.
>"But you've got no problems restricting a man's rights to a counter-argument on the same medium what angered him first appeared?"
Not as long as he pays the same fees that the people who put on the argument that offended him did. That was the point, though, that he didn't want to. Think about that. If we gave everybody free time to air their views, we'd have nothing but political broadcasts on all day long. I don't know about you, but I've grown tired of that just in the weeks since the election.
>"How so? Many murderers act on spur-of-the-moment, therefore, the possibility that they could be executed for their actions would not occur to them until after, and thus, execution would not serve as a deterent."
Actually, a little bit of research will show that the amount of non-premeditated murders is really quite small, on the order of 5%. Most murders take place in the course of a long criminal career (averaging seven felonies BEFORE the first kill) and are indicative of a continuing behavior pattern.
>"Omega, I thought I've made my views very clear on this. Apparently not.
If you are an individual, it is your body. No one can tell you what to do with it. No one may touch you without your permission. Etcetra, etcetra. Hence: if you're not a woman, and you're not pregnant, keep your fucking laws off of her."
Very good, very nice. Respond please: why does the preceeding statement NOT apply to the living individual INSIDE the woman, and shouldn't you keep your fucking laws off of IT, as well?
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 08, 2000).]
Just by the fact that you refer to an un-born child as an "it" and not a "he" or "she" seems to betray how you feel about it.
The real question is, is it alive? We've had this debate before. As far as I'm concered, no, an unborn baby is not alive.
And no, I'm not in favor of partial-birth abortion.
Political Views
First, turn on the television. EVERYTHING is political views, or have you forgotten the mess we're in?
executions
Well damn! You've just made my argument for rehabilitation all the stronger. If we can rehabilitate 'em before they get back out on the street, we can save lives! Better to spend money on that than on incarcirating them again, yes?
**NOTE**
SeanR was correct in his earlier post. This is supposed to be a thread about how great our system is, and it has degenerated into a petty squabble over political ideology. Therefore, I shall post no more in this thread forever.
Thank you.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux *** Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 08, 2000).]
posted
I referred to 'it' because it's faster and easier to write than 'he or she,' when the object of the sentence (unborn child)'s gender is unknown or irrelevant, and for no other reason. You like reading things in where they don't exist, don't you?
A partially-born baby, in the manner in which they carry out the procedure, is still unborn, so you have no logical reasoning supporting your being for regular abortion but against that one type.
Rehabilitation doesn't work. Harsh rehabilitation (prison) has an 80% return-to-crime rate, and "Nice" rehabilitation... well, ask Mr. Downey Jr.
One of the saddest lessons we've learned from predators, especially the kind that prey on children, is that once you've crossed that line, it's nearly impossible to cross back over.
Psychological 'conditioning' has worked in so few cases it's rarely even identified as a potential alternative in serious discussions about the penal system.
Now, if we had the Tantalus colony's chair or B5's mind-wiping, THOSE might work, or they might not.
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
You define "government" differently than I do. For the sake of argument, I will use your terms and definitions where possible.
"What I do not like, is people who condemn other nations for doing the same things that this nation has done, without acknowledging the fact that this nation has done those things."
I acknolwedge that the people in charge of this country, and people claiming to represent this country, have commited attrocities in the past. Do you believe that this justifies our supporting administrations in other countries that actively do so?
"I just don't understand why you want to antagonize the Chinese"
What is your basis for the conclusion that I wish to antagonize China?
"you wouldn't be ignorant of the Articles of Confederation, would you?"
No.
"But you've got no problems restricting a man's rights to a counter-argument on the same medium what angered him first appeared?"
Do you believe that the right to speak automatically conveys a right to be heard, in any medium desired? If so, how does this apply to the property rights of the owner of the press? Further, how does this apply to the freedom of expression of the publisher of the paper?
"Last I saw, most magazines and newspapers had editorial pages. Do you want these taken away as well?"
Do you believe that a government-mandated response in a privately controlled medium is equivalent to a voluntarily created editorial section?
The answer to your question is "No."
"Again, you apparently missed the crux of my argument, which is that a life sentence is more punishment than a death sentance."
Why should the punishment matter? Is not the objective to protect society? Thus, would the question not be, "What would be the best way to protect society from irredeemable criminals?"
"Name some specifics, Omega. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't."
You are refering to the accusation that the DNP disregards the constitution whenever it proves to be inconvenient?
The attempt to prevent the FL legislature from doing its constitutional duty. The support of the Fairness Doctrine The support of banning firearms The support of banning school prayer The support of Bill Clinton, a man who commited a crime and thus, according to the constitution, should have been removed from office The DNP inniated attempt in the Senate to dictate what isles food products would be placed in in supermarkets 90% of the programs that FDR implemented The existance of the FCC The abduction of Elian Gonzales from his court-appointed guardians Democrat judges writing new laws that do not exist
"Can you describe what you believe would be the social ramifications of programs such as Hillary-Care
Yes, I already answered this one. A better society."
As I said before, I request more specificity. What, exactly, would happen if HillaryCare had been implemented? Describe the program.
"Why would Rob say Democrats are misguided? Could it be because he is not a Democrat, and therefore, those with different political views are misguided?"
Yes, it could be. However, you seemed to assume that was the only possible interpretation of what he said. I wish to know why you assumed this.
"If you are an individual, it is your body. No one can tell you what to do with it. No one may touch you without your permission."
How does this apply to a doctor altering the body of an unborn child without his or her permission?
"Iran-Contra"
What is your evidence that any Republican lied in this event?
"Omega (the Closet Democrat)."
What is your basis for this conclusion?
"As far as I'm concered, no, an unborn baby is not alive."
What is your basis for this conclusion?
------------------ "You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..." - Fraser, "due South"
posted
I have only 2 points to add to the previous posts.
1. I don't like abortion, but who, and why, should anyone be able to control people to that level. Because you think it's right to control people that much? <--this is the wrong anwser.... This was Hitler controlling those he didn't approve of. I think 1sts use of it was to be PC, but I may be wrong. I will be using 'it' for ease of typing. As for surgery on the unborn. If you are of the mind that it is a living person, then it is a minor and parental control is invoked. If you are of the mind that it is a parasite, then no worry, it has no rights. **Can we keep abortion seperate from executions?**
2. Yes, the US has done things that were wrong during its creation and expansion. Should we feel guilty about doing those things. Only if you were the one to do them. Should we learn from these past mistakes? Yes. Should we try to help other nations that are being ruled by people that are acting as we did. Yes. **Before you jump on this, there are various levels of help. Missionary types and military types. But let's use education for this. Helping the others with education.**
------------------ Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
posted
>"As for surgery on the unborn. If you are of the mind that it is a living person, then it is a minor and parental control is invoked."
An extremely dangerous assumption. Abortion is not surgery. Surgery carries with it the express purpose of suataining life, not ending it.
If you class abortion as surgery, and say that unborn people can be aborted simply because they are minors and as such, are under the 'control' of their parents... then how can you justify condemning parents who 'abort' their post-born children? Or who refuse them medical attention, thus allowing them to die? Wouldn't the same rules apply?
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
posted
Since JK brought this up in the other thread, I feel compelled to point out to anyone who's reading this thread that, contrary to JK's claims ("Omega answered ALL of my questions with questions, refusing to answer them."), if you read back through this thread, you will find that I have answered precisely one question with another question, and that one seemed rhetorical.
------------------ "You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..." - Fraser, "due South"
posted
Of course, the only place where it's relevant to answer with a question is Jeopardy.
This, however, is not Jeopardy.
------------------ "Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
posted
A question for those who believe in abortion. If it was possible to "transplant" embyo's from one person to another (or, if you like, to a artificial womb for women who can't carry a baby), quickly, painlessly and harmlessly, even from a really young age, do you still think that the woman should have the right to abort the baby rather that "donate" it to another couple?
------------------ "I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer
Printer-friendly view of this topic
