But they didn't. So was this an error or a lie on God's part?

Of course, you don't go into the REAL reason God cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, as the BIBLE relates. It wasn't for disobedience. It was out of FEAR. FEAR that they might then eat from the tree of life, and become as gods.

Genesis 3:22: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..."

(Of course, WHO God is speaking to when He says 'one of US' is also a matter for some debate, unless God talks to Himself in the third person.)

>"No, Satan made the building.'
God made Satan. God made Hell. God put whatever allowed Satan to turn evil INTO Satan in the first place. Perhaps He didn't build the building, but he trained and financed the architect.

>"No, they live there of their own accord."
You're saying that they can come back? All the ousted angels? Satan, even? News to theology circles... this would mean there's hope for redemption even in Hell... which would destroy any worrying about it.

>"you're making the assumption that an adult with full reasoning skills, but missing a vital piece of knowledge, will behave in any way you can predict."

First, you're assuming that Adam and Eve HAD full reasoning skills. I'm TELLING you that that's impossible. One cannot have full reasoning skills without the capacity for JUDGEMENT. Which one CANNOT have without the knowledge of 'good and evil' meaning true and false and right and wrong.

Second, God owed them that knowledge, for their own safety. If evil exists in the world, ignorance is equated with destruction. Satan existed. Why did God not bother to tell them about Him? Why didn't he say "Don't eat from the tree... and oh, yeah, don't listen to the snake."

>"God cares about our free will. If we're FORCED to love Him, what's the point? The whole idea is that we have a choice. You can choose to be in the building when it colapses. It'd be an incredibly stupid thing to do, but you can choose it."

God doesn't give a rat's ass about our free will. All that matters to him is that we choose him and spend the rest of eternity praising and singing to him. If we don't, we get a one-way trip to the eternal killing fields, with no chance of parole.
"You can choose to turn away... but you'll be so-rry..."
That is the SAME 'choice' given by the stalker, and the abusive boyfriend. "Choose me or DIE." Such a choice is no real choice. It's just that some of us have enough self-respect to know when our 'boyfriend' is being abusive.

Tell me, if God can't be in the presence of sin, how on Earth did He call Satan into His presence in JOB? HUH?

>"Revelation 20:10. Sounds like it's demolished to me."

That's a bit late in the series, like I said. Our protagonist should have had this problem wrapped up by the end of Book 1. You'll notice, also, that Revelation is actually set in a FUTURE book... one which I'm not at all sure will ever be published. Like I've said, I doubt the Author's sincerity. (That, and John the Revelator was probably on 'shrooms when he wrote it.)

>"What happens to you in life doesn't matter, unless it affects your position with God when you die."

Which it has, or will have, if I croak anytime soon, as the above demonstrates. And doubtless has to others at other times.

And, regarding the Eden myth, I don't think the serpent was supposed to be Satan. Notice that, after Yahweh finds out when happens, he doesn't address the serpent as Satan, he just talks to it like it's the first snake. All that about its descendants crawling on their bellies and such... It was just a serpent that "tricked" (not a very good term, since the snake told the truth and Yahweh was the liar) Eve, so Yahweh punished snakes for all time.

Adam and Eve died. When they ate of the tree, it became sure that they would. Simple enough.

Of course, you don't go into the REAL reason God cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, as the BIBLE relates. It wasn't for disobedience. It was out of FEAR.

No, it was out of disobedience. God said that they would die if they ate of the TOTKOGAE, presumably because they would no longer be able to be in God's presence. Eating of the Tree of Life would have negated that. Therefore, said eating needed to be prevented. Death was the required consequence. It was simply ensured by prevention of access.

WHO God is speaking to when He says 'one of US' is also a matter for some debate

Trinity. The angels. Does it matter? Just any being that has knowledge of good and evil. God's not all alone up there.

God made Satan.

Your parents made you. Does that mean that they would be responsible if you decided to go on a killing spree? A positivly... liberal viewpoint.

God made Hell.

To punish Satan, something you claim He never did.

God put whatever allowed Satan to turn evil INTO Satan in the first place.

Free will, you mean?

Perhaps He didn't build the building, but he trained and financed the architect.

The architect in question is self-taught. Note the crappiness of the construction.

You're saying that they can come back? All the ousted angels? Satan, even?

It would be an interesting theological question: if Satan repented, would God forgive him? However, there is what's described as an unforgivable sin ("Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," however you wish to interpret that), and it's reasonable to assume that Satan et al. have committed it. Personally, I'd guess that it's really a point of no return. Once you cross this line, you won't WANT to be forgiven. Sheer, outright hatred of God, perhaps. So much that you'd rather suffer for eternity in Hell, just to spite him.

One cannot have full reasoning skills without the capacity for JUDGEMENT. Which one CANNOT have without the knowledge of 'good and evil' meaning true and false and right and wrong.

I would disagree. One can still judge whether something is within God's commands, so long as one is aware of them.

And I would also point out that perhaps "knowledge" does not refer to intellectual knowledge, but experience, as in "carnal knowledge". You can know what is wrong without KNOWING wrong.

Tell me, if God can't be in the presence of sin, how on Earth did He call Satan into His presence in JOB? HUH?

I have issues with Job being included in inspired scripture, actually. It is the only book in the Bible that has NOTHING to do with the storyline, and is referenced exactly once, in a reference that includes someone we've never heard of (Danel, not to be confused with Daniel). Then we have know idea who wrote it, or why God would have told them of the events in heaven. And of course, your objection, which has always bugged me.

Maybe I oughta ask someone more knowledgable. Darned Catholics, defining inspired scripture for us.

All that matters to him is that we choose him and spend the rest of eternity praising and singing to him. If we don't, we get a one-way trip to the eternal killing fields, with no chance of parole.

Look: you're in a condemned building. That building's existance poses a threat to others. The building will be destroyed. You have two choices: leave the building, or stay there and be killed when it colapses around your ears. Pick one.

"You can choose to turn away... but you'll be so-rry..."

I'd say it's more like the choice given Sara Conner in the Terminator movies by HER saviors. "Come with me if you want to live."

That's a bit late in the series, like I said. Our protagonist should have had this problem wrapped up by the end of Book 1.

The general idea is that God wants the maximum number of people to be saved. If he'd demolished the building at the end of Genesis, EVERYONE would go to Hell, because no one would have come to show them the way out. Everything is designed around the concept of the most possible peopole coming to know God, right down to the Tribulation in Revelation.

Tim:

I don't think the serpent was supposed to be Satan.

An interesting idea. I've thought of that myself. But then, how did it talk?

... It was just a serpent that "tricked" (not a very good term, since the snake told the truth and Yahweh was the liar)

Oh, please, I'd LOVE to know what you're talking about, here.

quote:

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Your parents made you. Does that mean that they would be responsible if you decided to go on a killing spree? A positivly... liberal viewpoint.

---

How cute. Omega's losing, so he decides to throw some mud around. Honestly, Omega, do you really think that the parents of a child who goes on a killing spree aren't at least partially responsible? What kind of a job were those parents doing if they raised a child capable of doing such a thing? The viewpoint you blast here is that you don't believe that parents, or friends, or society, plays a role in a person's development.

Of course, I don't know if you have a social life or not, but if not, that might explain why you have that viewpoint.

Then again, I guess God is a bit of a negligant parent ...

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Omega's losing

No point yet made that has not been refuted through use of analogy. At least his points are coherant, though. It's a nice change.

Wake me when somebody makes a point.

quote:

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See, Rob, even JEFF agrees with your statement. There MUST be something wrong with it.

---

Rob and I usually tend to agree in the general of this matter, I think. Of course, the same statement can be refused to say, "See, Omega? Even ROB disagrees with your statement. There MUST be something wrong with it."

I also think most people recognize that "no person is an island", and that when a tragedy like someone committing a mass shooting, many people share at least a contribution of responsibility, however, there is a difference between that and actual responsibility for the deed itself.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Does this make me sound bigoted? You goddamn right it does.

So i'm keeping quiet.

::runs away::

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

I HATE people like Omega.

Well, too bad. We love you. Get used to it.

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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

quote:

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We love you

---

I told you he had multiple personality disorder ...

But in all seriousness, Omega, do you love me too? Sometimes I don't know, I mean, remember the time you thought I was from another planet? ::sniffle::

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Not to mention the big loop-hole in your current gun argument that your oh-wonderous intelligence seems to be skipping over.

But, hey, at least I spell your name correctly.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001