Remember, slavery is good for the slaves. Sure they had to give up their freedom, but the got cool living quarters with racquet ball courts and everything.
And remember, once the system got up and running, there was nothing for the poor slave holder to do but keep his slaves as his property, under his thumb, and working the fields. To do anything less would have been inhuman.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
posted
And I have a real problem thinking of race based slavery as being right in any period.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:and treated their "slaves" as good as any other normal, white people.
The problem THERE, Blue E, is that the vast majority of white people where pretty damn poor and not treated all that way to begin with. A poor white man wasn't worth as much as a rich white man. And white women? Hell, they had about as much "freedom" as the slaves.
quote: They lived in small wooden cabins, with dirt floors, which were drafty and hard to keep clean. A Polish visitors described these cabins as "more miserable than the cottages of our peasants.
Which makes them the equal of nearly every house on the then frontier. (this WAS the 18th century, remember?) My great great great great great grandfather lived in such a house. Civilized? No. Livable? Yes.
quote: I'm forceably removed from freedom and from my family.
I'm sold into chattel and raced based slavery.
I'm kept out of the education system.
I'm kept out of the political system.
I'm kept out of the dominate cultural arena in a systemic way that precludes any advancement on my part.
I owe the system so much for that treatment that I should work for free another 20 years.
THAT'S entirely EQUATIBLE isn't IT. NO, that is profoundly stupid.
Well, except for point two, [which isn't quite as valid as you think it is, for reasons I shall enumerate later] You've described the situation of most of the WHITE people who came to the country, as well.
Indentured servitude. People sentenced to "transportation." Georgia was a penal colony, remember?
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
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Every well off families owned slaves back then, does every country conduct Holocaust?
Your conparison of the two are questionable.
And I say "MAYBE" they did treated their slaves better, and by "they", I mean your founding fathers. MAYBE does not mean absolute, start reading before start quoting me!
-------------------- "George Washington said, 'I cannot tell a lie.' Richard Nixon said, 'I cannot tell the truth.' Bill Clinton said, 'I cannot tell the difference.'"
-- comedian TOM SMOTHERS, from his latest stage act with brother DICK SMOTHERS.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Well, Omega's arguement is that the slaves were better off in the care of Washington and Jefferson et. all because "they took better care of them."
They didn't. They got them jobs on the farm, didn't educate them beyond what they needed to know to do those jobs, and didn't free them until they (Washington, Jefferson) died.
I mean, if they'd bought the slaves, given them an education, then freed them, it'd be a different story. But they didn't.
Look, folks, stop defending these guys for owning slaves. Realize there are aspects about slave owning that CAN'T be defended, and move on.
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"And don't forget, without them, you won't even be talking about all this shit in this very board right now."
I would be. Granted, I might possibly be speaking German, but still...
It is possible to look up to people, and see their faults at the same time Blue.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
quote: It is possible to look up to people, and see their faults at the same time Blue.
And if that's what was being done, I'd say 'fine.' But it's not.
What's being taught, essentially, is that NONE of their ideas, whether properly acted on or not, were valid, because of their personal faults. (But again, this is a policy that only applies to the enemies of their goals. In any other case, you'll find a 'the end justifies the means' standard [the number of people who still rabidly defend Clinton, for instance, despite all his well-known, and a few strongly rumored, personal faults].
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
quote:What's being taught, essentially, is that NONE of their ideas, whether properly acted on or not, were valid, because of their personal faults.
No ... what I was taught (in a very liberal state) was that they had some good ideas, some not so good ideas, and some personal faults that aren't so good.
quote:(But again, this is a policy that only applies to the enemies of their goals.
You know, I think you'd really like some of Harvey Danger's songs. Especially the one that goes, "paranoia, paranoia, everybody's coming to get me..."
quote:In any other case, you'll find a 'the end justifies the means' standard [the number of people who still rabidly defend Clinton, for instance, despite all his well-known, and a few strongly rumored, personal faults].
In the same way that Republicans brush over George W.'s lack of "moral" upbringing within his own family; Dubya's drinking problem; that he got where he is because of his family name; and that he still owes the National Guard a couple years in a fighter jet.
What'd Clinton do? Protest the Vietnam War and get a blowjob? Ooooh.
[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff The Card ]
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You forgot abused presidential power to bypass congress, (to declare certain areas National Monuments -- only Congress is supposed to be allowed to do that) and Marc Rich. And lie under oath. And collect information illegally (remember those several thousand FBI files?). And of course, Bush's alleged alcoholism still compares favorably to Clinton's alledged cocaine addiction. "I should get some of this for my brother, he's got a nose like a vacuum!" -- George Clinton.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
You forgot to mention Dubya's alleged cocaine addiction.
And his "alleged" alcoholism isn't so alleged -- he admitted to it, including a well publicized drinking and driving event. Once an alocholic, always an alcoholic, and very good of him not to have had a drink in 15 years.
Ford's pardon of Nixon.
Gingrich's attempt to bypass the Judicial and Executive branches of Government with the Republican Party's "Contract With America." Not to mention HIS alleged affairs.
Or the affairs of Senator Packwood.
Now, can't we all just agree that PEOPLE AREN'T FUCKING PERFECT and while it's fine to like 'em or their politics, it's NOT GOOD to forget their faults, and CERTAINLY not good to apologize for their faults.
If Omega wants to make slavery out to be a good thing because some men he admired practiced it, shame on him.
But, hey, we can go on if you just want to turn this into a mud-slinging match.
[ July 11, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff The Card ]
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If you can tell me just how the "Contract with America" bypassed the Judicial and Executive branches, I'll be impressed.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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While we think slaves are no good, they might not.
We do have a friggin' 200 odd years of seperation from them.
IDEA CHANGES THROUGH TIME!
You can blame people who own slaves now, but you can't blame the founding father because they didn't know better.
Maybe their slaves didn't get the education they deserve, but in the same time, MAYBE they get treated more like human beings.
-------------------- "George Washington said, 'I cannot tell a lie.' Richard Nixon said, 'I cannot tell the truth.' Bill Clinton said, 'I cannot tell the difference.'"
-- comedian TOM SMOTHERS, from his latest stage act with brother DICK SMOTHERS.
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