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Recks: well I thought it was a funny thought.
TNG may not have been breaking new ground in Science Fiction literature, but for mainstream weekly television that occurs during prime time, it was pretty progressive. It exposed a lot of people who may not have ever heard of Stanislaw Lem or maybe even Asimov to ideas they hadn't really thought about before. It's easy for Ellison and the rest of us to derride it for not pushing too far, but you have to understand that they also need to make a show to which the public at large can relate. That watering down might be irritating to the truly sci-fi nerdy among us (I'm looking at you, Simon) (I'm also looking at me and, well, pretty much everyone who participates in any semi-regular way in an on-line forum for discussing science-fiction), but its what let these shows stay on the air. Star Trek is something of an aberrant success story in the saga of episodic television. Is it ever going to be Paramount's answer to Friends? No. Is it going to let us see some pretty cool ideas in between the cracks of the ever-mounting piles of schlock? Yes.
And the main reason DS9 did not suceed was that it was set on a space station (as the right honorable Mr. Topher pointed out). It was worth a shot, and hey that hoopy Joe Straczynski had a great idea well worth ripping off. Even though we were often treated to exotic locales every other Ep, we never had a starship visiting strange and bizarre new star-systems every week. That's why they needed the Defiant. By then to was too late. People saw soap-opera. People saw Kira's loyalties tested every episode. People saw that guy from Benson as an extremely unimaginative shapeshifter. People saw Avery Brooks not playing a cool character until later seasons.
So I was pretty excited about Voyager initially. We were going to be exploring new places with new aliens and new technologies with zero possibility of contact with the familiar settings of UFP proper. Alas, Kate Mulgrew kind of grated on the nerves sometimes (she did grow on me), but I think they lost a lot of people right there. They tried to develop the wrong characters and didn't explore the right ones nearly enough. I'm one of the fan-boys who liked Seven,(Have you guys ever noticed that Bebe is so cool and funny?), but the resurrection of the spectre of Borg always seemed a desperation move to me. 'Equinox' was really really good, but people tuning in for the first time probably might not get that.
I think Enterprise has a lot of potential, but so far I've been pretty unimpressed. I haven't seen them forging ahead into unexplored territory. I haven't seen characterization that pushes the limits. I haven't even seen visuals to rival the Dominion War stuff from DS9. But it's still the first season. I'm sure I'll probably watch the whole thing. I just don't know that it's ever going to attain the popular success of TNG.
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
Registered: Sep 2000
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Edipissed Wrecks
Ex-Member
posted
personally i loved DS9 from the first episode that i saw. however, TNG will always be number one in my heart, mostly for the reasons already said. i remember getting a Picard action figure, and that die cast Entperprise D toy (which promptly broke and had to be exchanged for another one almost immediately) at the mall right before the series started. TOS is one of my first memories, and TNG is one of my first really lucid memories. to me, the show will always be a classic. sure some of the episodes are crappy. sure some of the sets are crappy. sure some of the SFX are crappy. but the show is not crappy. the show is great.
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Considering that the first time I watched TNG was when I was 9 years old, it looked facinating from my perspective. Even though I wasn't able to understand most of the morals behind the stories, it was fun for me to watch. There was othing like seeing a bald captain racing around space with a big ship with big guns and the guy from Reading Rainbow as the ship's engineer.
-------------------- "It speaks to some basic human needs: that there is a tomorrow, it's not all going to be over with a big splash and a bomb, that the human race is improving, that we have things to be proud of as humans." -Gene Roddenberry about Star Trek
Registered: May 1999
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posted
TNG started the year before I went in to the Army, so I missed the 87 to 90 seasons, I was leary about watching it, I didn't think that it could hold up to TOS. I missed the 87 season for being leary of it....
After I got out of the army a friend of mine got me in to video games and scifi again... The asshole warped my mind.... Now I am here....
It had that certain something that people of all ages could relate too, I guess.... Shit I don't know... Why ask???
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Shit I don't know... Why ask???
Er, because it might create an interesting conversation about something more subjective than how many torpedo tubes the Akira-Class has?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I'm pretty sure that at the beginning of DS9, Voyager and Enterprise, TPTB have stated that the show will return to "the core ideas/themes/haircuts of Trek".
Well guess what, they have!
I could NOT put my hands on the articles right now, or in a few days, it'd take a while of going back through countless interviews in lots of Magazines, but I do remember Just before DS9 started Berman and Piller or one or the other said that DS9 would return to the feel/spirit of the Original series. (And even though it's on a Space Station - I think it is more TOS than TNG)
Then I remember reading Berman (I don't think it was Piller or Jeri Taylor) saying that Voyager would return 'us' to the spirit/feel of the Original Series! This stuck in my mind because I remembered it from DS9. He/she said 'because they are out there really exploring strange new worlds, new quadrant etc.
They don't get it - it's not about new characters/places/situations (infact Enterprise and Voyager both start out with this 'premise' but both revert to 'safe' and 'recognisable' races and situations.
Yes, I think I remember reading recently (and I wouldn't have this in hard copy because of the Internet) that Berman and Braga said that Enterprise would return us to the 'feel' and 'spirit' of the Original Series. Infact I remember posting here, or at one of the newsgroups before Enterprise had really started, that B or B would say this. That Enterprise would return us to the spirit and/or feel of the Original Series. Ugh. 3x they've said this. TNG didn't say it they wanted to make their OWN show. They had to prove that they weren't just a TOS clone, while at the same time acknowledging that they were linked together as one generation to the next.
Andrew
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
Actually, wasn't all the promotional hype surrounding TNG of the "Star Trek as Gene intended it!" variety, which seems to me as being very much in the vein of "In the spirit of TOS"?
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Kind of, but it also had to do with the fact that most Trekkies at the time knew that Gene had little to no input in the films, so having a series in which he was creator, writer, and executive producer was a big deal, at least to the existing fanbase. Unfortunately, "Star Trek as Gene intended it" turned out to be a little cheesy and somewhat dull, hence the whole third season "blossoming" and Gene's eventual passing of the torch to Rick Berman.
I must stop babbling on, in real life I can carry on for hours, without saying anything... Now it is catching up to me here....
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Well if they said that - they've got 4 for 4. The TNG reference though, yes would be to do with Gene retaking the Trek helm, not just new series trying to re-capture lost audiences.
I think also it was, as you mentioned, probably not the best way to go. When TNG got their own 'feel' it took it and ran with it by season 3.
DS9 too had to relinquish the TNG shadow. Voyager just never found it's own original feet. (I dont' think) There might have been a glimmer of hope at the start of some seasons, 4 5 and 6 - but they again reverted to old stories and lost their pace again to change the 'premise' again by the beginning of the next season. I think this stems from not establishing a set 'universe' for themselves in season 1/2. I.e. the characters weren't explored enough, instead they decided to fall back to (sometimes) hokey stories (including action, T&A, effects, "cool ideas" etc) to make an episode. A Series without good characters makes not a good series. That is why TNG was a success and DS9 a fan-success (never forget though DS9 did REALLY respectable in the ratings - not TNG stratosphere types - but considering what it was up against (including ANOTHER Trek show - during it's life-time - it certainly had good ratings).
Andrew
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
Well, I know that TNG will always be my favorite - and I don't care for whatever reason! The fact is just that it is like that.
But what I do notice is that the more often I watch DS9, the better I like it - and not just seasons 3 through 7.
That is something that hasn't happened with VOY for me. Sure, there are a handful of eps I really enjoy (Timescape, Relativity, Equinox, Message in a Bottle, as well as a few others), but as for the rest - no matter how often I watch them, I just don't get the feeling I could ever get attached to those hideously dull characters the way I could with TNG...or even DS9 now.
The only exception to me is the Doc. He is the only one who reminds me a little of what was so special about Picard and company.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Timescape? As in the second from last episode of TNG season 6, and therefore not a Voyager episode?
quote:Originally posted by Austin Powers: Well, I know that TNG will always be my favorite - and I don't care for whatever reason! The fact is just that it is like that.
While that's fair enough, I think that TPTB at Paramount are more likely to be saying "Why was TNG so much more popular than DS9 and Voyager, and how can we make Enterprise as successful?" Because they want to make money.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
We've moved past this part of the discussion, but to reiterate, Gene didn't hire 'classic' sf writers for TOS because of any overriding sense of mission/quality per se.
He did it for the same reason you hire a plumber to work on your sink. These were people who: 1) knew the story field (future/space. 2) needed the work.
That we got 'City on the Edge of Forever' and other exceptional (for television) episodes was serendipitous. Gene loved quality, but he had a show which needed a new episode aired each week so he could sell soap and pantyhose.
And I still say it can be rendered down to "sense of wonder".
-------------------- 'One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.' - Lazarus Long
Registered: Feb 2001
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