posted
It seems everyone has their own mysterious pet projects going these days, and so do I, only I've talked about a bit, so I guess it isn't that secret, but I haven't talked about everything about it!
Anyway, I watched Journey To Babel for notetaking purposes today, and to confirm a suspicion I had developed earlier, namely: The episode tells us how many planets and/or species are within the Federation at the time of the Babel conference.
Possibly. Maybe. Observe.
Pro: During the course of the episode, the number of passengers is listed. There are 114 delagates onboard, 32 of them ambassadors.
We can infer that each ambassador represents a member world (Vulcan, Andor(ia), Tellar) and that there is only one ambassador present per world. The other members of a species we see are staff.
Starfleet reports back that the Enterprise is the only ship authorized to be in "the quadrant." Now, it isn't exactly clear whether we the audience are supposed to think of as a quadrant as being larger or smaller than the earlier mentioned sector, however it does seem clear that Babel is within that quadrant too. This, coupled with the nonmentions any other starships in the area are given suggests that the entire host of Babel conference attendees are aboard the Enterprise.
Con: Just because the Enterprise doesn't have anyone nearby to help doesn't necessarily mean that all the Federation delagates are aboard. Some may already be on Babel, perhaps.
The mechanics of how the UFP works are as sketchy as ever here. Why are ambassadors being sent to what we later learn is essentially the UFP parliament, for instance? The picture of the Federation given here is quite different from that developed later; here it sounds a lot like a United Nations analogue, with lots of bitter, bickering parties eager to watch out for number one. Also, we hear that the Coridan admission issue could lead to "interstellar war." But not civil war? It is curious. My point is that we are sufficiently in the dark about the Federation council at this point to make it perhaps unreasonable to assume that the admission of Coridan is something every member world must or can vote on.
So, any ideas? Personally, 32 sounds like a good number for a mid-23rd century Federation. The tensions present in this episode could certainly be keeping the UFP from growing as quickly as it would later, in more stable, centralized eras. It would mean that the Federation had grown more quickly in the hundred years since TOS than in the hundred years prior, but that doesn't sound unreasonable.
(I've got a few other concerns regarding Journey To Babel, but they can wait for another thread.)
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
It sounds good mostly.
There are, of course, the annoyances: what makes an "ambassador," how many are from member worlds & how many are visiting, and of course, the ever-popular "what to do about colony worlds." Ferinstance, is Mars is or is Mars ain't a full-on member?
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Tom and I talked about Mars, with him suggesting that it probably wasn't separate enough to justify its own council seat(s), and me not quite seeing how the issue tied into my post here. But you have proven him right, and now I must flee to my hidden preserve!
The council being held on Babel is voting on whether or not to admit Coridan. It seems to me, based on the context of the episode, that they are all from Federation worlds. However, some could be observers, as you point out.
The ambassador confusion has always been a minor pet peeve of mine. You send ambassadors to other states, not the ruling body of your own. Of course, there is a heavy UN vibe in this episode, which is presumably the structure they had in mind.
This gets somewhat retrofitted by the time of, say, TNG's "Sarek," in which Sarek is indeed the "ambassador from Vulcan," but he is the Federation ambassador who just happens to be from Vulcan. And I'm generally in favor of making the Federation more statelike and less league of nations-y.
But I'm less concerned, at the moment, in how I think things should be, and more interested in what's in this specific episode.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Coridan's admission probably wasn't an easy decision. The planet had been involved in the Andorian/Vulcan conflicts, and the dilithium mines and high-tech shipyards made it a valuable planet, not only for the Federation.
Some forces (Klingons, Tholians, Tandarans) might have been strongly opposed to the UFP 'assimilating' such a powerful planet, and threatened with the above-mentioned interstellar war.
This could be why all (or most) UFP members were present at the Babel conference.
posted
The big problem I have is that delegates seem to be ordered along species lines, which would mean that no matter how many colonies Earth may have, there is only one human delegate. . .
posted
Going along that line of thought, it seems to indicate that every planet in the Federation only has one species on it. Which is what's shown, even in the 24th century. Shouldn't there be a couple of colony planets that are a bit more mixed, or do we not love each other enough?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Why would that be a problem? A council representative from widespread species X could have more votes than the representative of the reclusive minority species Y, if so desired and decided.
BTW, have we ever heard any canonical reference to "Council Member" with regard to the UFP Council? Perhaps "Ambassador" in fact is the term preferred for this position, while "President" is used instead of "Chancellor"... This may be a random oddity, or then a deliberate choice by the Feds to avoid similarities with the titles of the Klingon High Council representatives and leaders. Or then the role of the parliamentary representatives in the UFP is much more "international" than in any Earth parliament, due to the fact that each electory district within the "nation" is separated by vast tracts of space where "foreigners" dwell...
posted
So every UFP member has a (group of) Ambassadors to the Council, that together (on behalf of their respective governments) make the decisions. The Ambassadors would be chosen by their respective planetary governments.
One significant reference is T'Pau, the only one who ever declined a seat on the Council. This could mean that she was chosen by the Vulcan High Command to be their Ambassador to the Council.
posted
Re-reading my last post, it appears to say I want more human representation. It was actually meant as just one example.
Say we have one widely-spread species, who live throughout the Federation. Humanity is one, I'm sure there are others. Now, in the case of humanity, we've seen that there are groups with wildly-varying political views (the Maquis, for example; remember what Eddington had to say about the same-ness of the Federation?); how could you have all of them represented by just one person?
posted
I presume every Federation race has had to deal with the occasional rebel faction appearing, the Maquis being one. But the Vulcans once had a problem also with the 'Vulcan Isolationist Movement'..
Going back to the comments on applications from planets with more than one species on it, it is Federation policy that no application to the UFP would be considered unless the planet in question has a unified world government.
As for 32 members in the mid twenty third century, I would have thought the thinking would be the other way around. With a more stringent application process in recent times, due to problems that have occurred before, I would say two thirds of the current count of Federation members joined within the first century of the Federation. Now, I would reckon it would take the Federation 10 or 20 years to process an application.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
LUG has this in their "Price Of Freedom" supplement:
"To distracted Starfeet officers assigned to escort Federation diplomats hither and yon in the quadrant, it sometimes seems like everyone is an ambassador. Part of the confusion comes from the number of titles any given diplomat might claim at any time, and the rest stems from the Federation's nature as a collection of sovereign planets. For example, the head of the Vulcan delegation to the Federation Council is termed the Ambassador from Vulcan to the Federation, or colloquially, the Vulcan Ambassador. A Vulcan diplomat sent from Vulcan to negotiate with an independent planet such as Bajor is the Vulcan Ambassador to Bajor, and also is referred to as 'Ambassador.' The Federation as a whole may also commission ambassadors to foreign cultures such as the Jarada. In most Federation diplomatic circles, the Ambassador to the Federation is the most important Ambassador from the planet (sometimes referred to as the Chief Ambassador). Thus, virtually all members of the Federation Council, even Terrans, hold ambassador rank: Michela Marshall is technically the Ambassador from the United Earth Republic to the Federation, and therefore subordinate in power to President Chang-Lewis of earth, even thought she wields far more power than he does in Federation affairs. Ambassador is also a rank in the Federation Diplomatic Service (and in the diplomatic services of many other planets) roughly equivalent to captain's rank in Starfleet. (The others from lowest to highest being Second Legate, Legate, Vice-Envoy, Envoy,Envoy General, & Ambassador. --S.) Thus, Sarek rose through the ranks of the Vulcan diplomatic service to the rank of Ambassador, became Vulcan Ambassador to the Federation, and concluded his career as Federation Ambassador to the Legarans. Finally, as an ensign in command of a ship is referred to as the ship's "captain" in Starfleet terminology, the diplomat in charge of any mission, no matter how junior, is referred to as the 'Ambassador.'"
It's interesting to note that later on, they discuss this "Michaela Marshall" & say that she was born on Mars. They also say that she's "the first colony-born citizen to be appointed Earth's Federation Council member."
They've some interesting takes on the political structure of the UFP. A good read.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Kirk, incidently, mentions in his log that the actual topic of debate will be the admission of "the Coridan planets," and then "the Cordian system." After that it just gets shortened to Coridan.
I would hypothesize that it is quite rare to have more than one Federation member per star system, on the grounds that by the time a species discovers subspace physics they've probably been zipping around the local neighborhood for awhile. Thus Earth, Mars, and all the other inhabited worlds in the solar system might just get one council representative. Now, it is probably unwise to stretch such representation to cover more than one system, space being really, really big and all.
But, consider: Enterprise suggests that there are no really large human colonies outside of the solar system at the time, and even in TOS on those rare occasions when we hear about how many inhabitants a particular Earth colony has, that number is fairly small. Smaller than the population necessary to become a U.S. state, for example. At the time of the Federation's founding, there may not be any great need for separate representatives for the colonies.
At any rate, I'm somewhat torn here, because while I would personally like to be able to synthesize some sort of picture of how the Federation "really" works, my current goal is just to describe how TOS presents it, without drawing in outside information.
However, consider: In TOS, most aliens we meet look like humans in robes. In the background shots for "Journey to Babel," we see four obviously alien aliens (Andorians, Tellarites, Vulcans, little gold dudes), one borderline case (a lady who looks kind of bright pinkish, but that could be my eyes deceiving me), and a lot of humans in robes. But, are they all aliens, or are most of them actually humans? There are a lot more delagates onboard than just the ambassadors. And perhaps some of these are special committees from places like Earth Colony 2, there to ensure that their voice is not lost in the Earth vote.
Of course, the original intention of the producers was probably to suggest that most of the people in the room were in fact aliens. But this is one of those situations where we have to balance original intentions with Star Trek as a whole.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote: Going back to the comments on applications from planets with more than one species on it, it is Federation policy that no application to the UFP would be considered unless the planet in question has a unified world government.
Yes, but afterwards? Do member planets start their own colonies by themselves? If the Federation comes across a lovely uninhabited class-M world with no-one living on it, do they just give it to the nearest member planet, or can any Federation member settle on it?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
They could petition for it, on the basis of whom it would benefit most. I'd imagine there'd be a vast number of joint colonies, too.
Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged
Christ, whatever next? Simon admitting that he quite likes the music of Britney Spears?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Printer-friendly view of this topic
