posted
Only because she's the queen on the ass-groove herself. ...and in the 60's she did have a groovy ass!
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Realistically speaking, if the Yamato hadn't blown to smithereens, what SHOULD have happened to Varley was what happened to Ben Maxwell: removal from command and, most likely, court-martial. No matter what the favorable outcomes to UFP security, in each case both men are guilty of the same offense: violation of a treaty that the Federation signed in good faith. If you're going to throw the book at one, you should do the same to the other.
Of course, Picard should have had the same thing happen to him after some of his shenanigans, but we all know the rules don't apply to Enterprise captains
-------------------- The difference between genius and idiocy? Genius has its limits.
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Well, Picard didn't have orders from SF to enter the zone, he was going on Varleys request. We didnt even see him consulting SF when he went even deeper into the zone to finish the mission. Picard did the exact same thing as Varley, entered the zone without provocation, so Picard really should have gotten it too...
The thing I dont get is why the Romulans are ALWAYS in the neutral zone and yet if SF sticks its toe in the zone the Romulans are threatening war....
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Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Woah. There's a big difference between what Varley did and what Maxwell did, and don't tell me you can't see it.
Maxwell was running around attacking and destroying Cardassian ships & installations. Varley wasn't. There's a world of difference, and you need to draw better conclusions.
posted
I have to agree that there is a big diffrence between Varley and Maxwell's actions, but Varley would still have faced some serious charges. Kirk and Picard were elevated to "living legend" status and that's what saved their commands from stupid choices.
What if the Romulan ship had stubbornly not taken Riker's advice on how to re-boot their systems? War. You can bet the Romulans stopped to report illeagal Federation presense in the NZ to their command....so if two Fed ships entered the NZ and one was destroyed along with a warbird there would have been no explanations that would have satisfied the Romulan senate. After all, Enterprise had destroyed any evidence and data that could have supported their story.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
i think that if Varley had gone in on the archaeologicla clues, found Iconia either recovered the alien tech or simply kept it out of enemy hands, he wouldve been fine. I doubt Picard's 'legendary' status is enough to let him get away with misconduct, and it follows that as long as the mission outcome was as favorable for Varley, he probably wouldve been given due credit for his actions... i dont believe he botched the mission, his ship was claimed by a hostile force through actions not his own, remember that the same very nearly happened to Enterprise, which continued his mission as though nothing was wrong with continuing the said mission. If the mission were truly criminal or inadvisable i doubt Picard wouldve led his crew to the same end as Varley.
Registered: Sep 2001
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
In the end though, Varley & Picard's actions came down to saving the hind of the Federation (from the grave but not immediate threat of the Romulans making planetfall on Iconia, then possibly [!] declaring war on the UFP), the same slim justification Sisko needed in ITPM to frame the Dominion. And he could live with it... underneath that Evolved Sensibility bullcrap resides an all too familiar clandestine nature
Heck, come to think of it, Sisko's initial reaction to Section 31 and his later 180 degree turnaround in ITPM speak volumes about true human essence... Picard is no different, much as he might want to be
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
I would'nt put Sisko in with Varley. Sisko broke his own consience because thousands of lives had already been lost and millions more were going to be killed if he didint act then. Varley's case was just a "mabye" and there was a far greater chance that nothing of use remaining on Iconia than that there would be super weapons or gateways or anything else. Sisko was led to a moral quicksand by circumstances beyond his control. Varley jumped in head first.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Varley is worse than Sisko? Sisko provoked the Dominion to the point of war which killed billions of people and almost brought about the end of the Federation!
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: What if the Romulan ship had stubbornly not taken Riker's advice on how to re-boot their systems? War. You can bet the Romulans stopped to report illeagal Federation presense in the NZ to their command....so if two Fed ships entered the NZ.
Two GALAXIES too... that seemed quite rare at that time.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
From the Romulan POV, the Galaxy was the Federation Battleship. Imagine the fun if a Warbird just decloaked around Saturn.
NO WAY did Sisko provoke the Dominion war! With what? The minefield? Without the Minefield the Dominion could have easily taken out the station and then Bajor with one of their regular fleet reenforcments. What could starfleet have done then against a greater power that had proven itself hostile to the Federation if they lost control of the wormhole? Nothing at all. Even with the Romulans and Klingons they would have been wiped out within a year id Dominion forces from the Gamma quadrant could be summoned up prepetually.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: Woah. There's a big difference between what Varley did and what Maxwell did, and don't tell me you can't see it.
Maxwell was running around attacking and destroying Cardassian ships & installations. Varley wasn't. There's a world of difference, and you need to draw better conclusions.
Snay, I'm quite aware of the difference. However, the point I was trying to make was that, in the diplomatic scheme of things, both men were guilty of the same offense; the additional crimes Maxwell was guilty of were just icing on the cake. If a US Navy captain went off on his own and violated a treaty we had with another country, his career would be over whether or not lives were involved. The fact that Varley's actions benefitted Federation security would probably gotten his punishment swept under the rug, but it wouldn't (or shouldn't) have gotten him off the hook totally.
-------------------- The difference between genius and idiocy? Genius has its limits.
Registered: Aug 2001
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
that analogy is lame.. surely you recognize there's a big difference between trespass in the home system of one of the gov'ts and the neutral zone.. ie, a Fed starship intruding in the Zone is not similar to a Rom bird intruding in the Sol System.. decloaking near Saturn would be a serious offense, but no one is talking about the E-D or Yamato penetrating Romulan space (even though Picard did just that two years later), they were just penetrating the Zone.. its a line the Romulans also cross frequently, usually without consequences. the treaty is there, but commanders know that both sides can and will use leeway when it comes to the Zone, simply because theyve gotten away with it before as long as there reasoning kept their government safe..
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Sisko arguably ruined any chance the Federation had of finding a diplomatic solution to the Odyssey incident and the destruction of the Bajoran colonies when he took a heavily armed experimental starship into the heart of the Dominion looking for the homeworld of its notoriously secretive rulers. Gosh, I can't imagine how they might misinterpret that.
This is a problem with the story as presented, though, and not really a mistake Sisko the character made.
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