quote:in "Starship Troopers" Heinlein said that if there was an infantry captain on a navy vessel, the o-3 captain would be referred to as 'major' in title only, so as to not be referred to as captain.. but im pretty sure this probably only held in official functions like dinners and ceremonies, when the navy and infantry were segregated they probably referred to each other business as usual.. and if there was another o-6 _naval_ captain aboard, then _they'd_ be referred to as commodore.. anyone know any actual navy practice?
Yeah, the part about Marines is correct, although they are referred to as Major all the time they are on board ship. Not sure what happens with two Navy Captains on board but I'll try to find out.
Actually, I've never seen that practiced in real life. My first two ships were smallboys, so the issue never came up, but my last was a flagship, so we had many naval captains and a number of marines of vasrying ranks aboard. I never heard any bumped up a grade for courtesy. Heinlein knew his RL military stuff, but in Starship Troopers, he made his own version to suit his story, so I don't think there's any connection to the real world. That said, I like the idea and used it when I ran ST rpgs.
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quote:Originally posted by Revanche: I've vacilated between a Fleet Captain being the equivalent of a Commodore (US Navy billet, regardless of rank, who is in charge of a division or dquadron of two or more ships) and being a Type Commander (i.e. charged with the welfare, maintenance and supply of a given type - destroyers, frigates, etc - of ship, in a purely administrative role).
That's pretty much the same conclusion I came to. I decided it can be both. A captain (O-6) in charge of a task force can be given the courtesy title, to distinguish him from the rest, and it can also refer to a captain or commodore/RADM in a Tycom slot, just as a CDR (O-5) in command of a ship is called captain, despite his rank).
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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Keep in mind that ight now I am a Plane Captain in the Navy. Does that make me an actual O-6/Captain in the Navy. No it's a job title for the enlisted to launch a plane. All we do is prep the plane for the officers, examine the plane for any post-flight damage (for DTAs, TAs, and possibly Turns), and launch the plane in the end.
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i definitely think Fleet Captain is only a title, given to someone of the rank of O6 Captain or O7 Commodore (or RADM2).. sems like it might even be a do nothing position.. Pike and Garth didnt seem to be active starship commanders, Pike was training cadets, and Garth didnt seem to have commanded a starship recently.. perhaps you give a captain the title 'fleet captain' and he becomes a kind of figurehead, doing PR, press interviews, launching ships, training cadets, chairing committees and the such
but i sincerely doubt there is an actual rank between O6 and O7.. its too cumbersom to add to the system, (although some rank insignia schemes seem open to it being added)
when i compiled the insig chart i added a fleet captain wherever one would fit, but i added its a title not a rank, so its not an extra grade or anything
posted
perhaps you give a captain the title 'fleet captain' and he becomes a kind of figurehead, doing PR, press interviews, launching ships, training cadets, chairing committees and the such
A captain who's not actually commanding anything, perhaps?
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I always figured that fleet captain was an semiofficial rank AND title used to convey seniority of service over other captains.
Hear me out.
Kirk & Picard are both VERY good at thwat they do. They HATE the idea of being promoted (leaving aside Kirk's 17-year forced admiralization) & would much rather be commanding a ship than a distict, starbase, fleet, squadron, or what have you. However, we can't simply let these highly seasoned & even more highly respected officers just be told what to do by any tool with flag rank. Hmm. What to do?
Thus the fleet captain limbo area was born. You take a senior command officer who's well-known, well-respected, & has earned his chops more than most; Garth, Pike, Kirk, Picard, & to some degree even Sisko have all proven themselves in this area. It's a rank insofar as seniority goes--Captain Picard who is technically Fleet Captain Picard can order Captain Everyman of the Starship Piddlydeeds around--but it's a title & job as well, so they can simply be addressed as captain.
As for Pike becoming "fleet captain of Constitution-class vessels" or whatever it was, there may be a codicile that allows for FCPTs to command a small squadron, wing, or fleet in an area that they are familiar with. Thus, Pike--who was familiar with Connies--held that post. Perhaps he superceded the newly-promoted-to-Commodore Robert April.
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I think it's a "brevet" rank. Meaning it's assigned when needed - temporary under most conditions.
Basically, you have a squadron of ships thrown together in an emergency and one captain - the most experienced/senior captain present - is picked to command the "fleet". Hence, "Fleet Captain".
If there was a true Commodore present, unless he/she was not a field commander, they would be picked automatically as the squadron commander.
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quote: Actually, I've never seen that practiced in real life. My first two ships were smallboys, so the issue never came up, but my last was a flagship, so we had many naval captains and a number of marines of vasrying ranks aboard. I never heard any bumped up a grade for courtesy. Heinlein knew his RL military stuff, but in Starship Troopers, he made his own version to suit his story, so I don't think there's any connection to the real world. That said, I like the idea and used it when I ran ST rpgs.
Yeah but that's the US navy; I'm pretty sure the practice is still in use in the RN. Who have many strange and wierd traditions...
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So it would seem, not that 2 ships constitutes a fleet . However, with that logic, everything we've seen in DS9 would be null, as it seems that Sisko was the Fleet Captain during the retaking of DS9...but certainly he couldn't have been the most seasoned or highest ranking captain there...in which case, it would be an assigned role, unless there was a situation as in Equinox where regulations serve the assignment.
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quote: Actually, I've never seen that practiced in real life. My first two ships were smallboys, so the issue never came up, but my last was a flagship, so we had many naval captains and a number of marines of vasrying ranks aboard. I never heard any bumped up a grade for courtesy. Heinlein knew his RL military stuff, but in Starship Troopers, he made his own version to suit his story, so I don't think there's any connection to the real world. That said, I like the idea and used it when I ran ST rpgs.
Yeah but that's the US navy; I'm pretty sure the practice is still in use in the RN. Who have many strange and wierd traditions...
Except that I'm a Quartermaster. We maintain and train folks on tradition, as well as navigation. It's not in any book on naval customs that I've seen, I thought it might have been an old RN naval custom, but since 'show a leg' and dead horse are mentioned, among others, it'd be mentioned also. So no, I doubt that it's RN.
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It is but only when the Marine SO is a captain. Which is vanishingly rare these days. I imagine it fell out of use in the late 19th century anyway so...
And there are many differences between USN and RN (such as how you guys managed to pick up an Army subalterns' rank).
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quote:Originally posted by Wraith: It is but only when the Marine SO is a captain. Which is vanishingly rare these days. I imagine it fell out of use in the late 19th century anyway so...
And there are many differences between USN and RN (such as how you guys managed to pick up an Army subalterns' rank).
Yes, that one surprises and confuses most ensigns when I tell them - they surprisingly rarely make the connection to the national flag being referred to as the ensign.
So, since none of the customs and traditions books I've seen in the USN mention that courtesy, can you recommend any good RN titles/authors to look up?
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Well, to be honest I can't really remember exactly where I read/heard about it. In fact I'm fairly sure it was during a lecture of some description, probably when I went down to HMS Victory and Warrior. It's possible that Osprey might have it in one of their books but they tend to be more on the technical side. Sorry I can't be more help.
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. However, with that logic, everything we've seen in DS9 would be null, as it seems that Sisko was the Fleet Captain during the retaking of DS9...but certainly he couldn't have been the most seasoned or highest ranking captain there...in which case, it would be an assigned role, unless there was a situation as in Equinox where regulations serve the assignment.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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