posted
kmart: Very interesting. That's the first time I get an idea of GR's objections to ST VI (other than a general "it destroys his vision").
And about canonicity of ST V/VI vs. TAS. While the Encyclopedia as such cannot be *the canon*, it represents canon. I mean, the Okudas wouldn't write this very thick and usually very reliable book, include all kinds of references, only to add user notes, which mark TAS as non-canon and certain events of ST V/VI too. The second edition corrected some errors (namely introduction of selected non-canon facts) made in the Encyclopedia I and the Chronology, so the motivation and goal is clear.
This would make the two movies bascially canon, but I have no problem to disrespect a few troublesome facts, like I don't have the problem with "Spock's Brain" or "Threshold" either.
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posted
The encyclopedia doesn't mark certain events in ST V and VI as non-canon. It says that Roddenberry had a problem with them, but as far as the book (and the general practise of "canon" with regards to Star Trek), V and VI are as canon as any other movie, and I really need to find some synonyms for "canon".
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
Personally, while I liked what TUC was trying to do, I thought it was a ham-fisted way of doing it. The movie fell pray to my biggest complaint with Star Trek: that it wants to touch on important issues, but it's only willing to do so by telling the audience that it's deep, not by showing any depth itself. The quotes from Shakespeare, which should have served as literary allusions to the themes being explored, are overused to the point that they club you over the head not with a message, but merely as the filmmakers showing you they've read it...or at least used Bartlett's familiar quotations.
The racism displayed is also too heavy handed...it would have been more shocking to see it come out with subtlety, allowing the characters themselves to be able to see it for the first time by hearing it from the lips of their supposedly enlightened compatriots.
And Scotty's "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her father!" still makes me cringe.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: And Scotty's "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her father!" still makes me cringe. [/QB]
He said that?
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quote: Originally Posted By Capt.Blair245 He said that?
You call yourself a Trek fan?! You should be able to recall all references from all episodes and movies to fit in around here.
BTW, it was right after Valeris slid down the strippers pole and shook the wall in the torpedoe room and informed Spock and Scotty that Azetbur was named Chancellor. Then came the whole, "Klingons don't have tear ducts" reference....
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posted
Well, who says that Klingon eyeballs need to be? (Though I'm sure we've seen more than a few shots of Klingons with remarkably dewey expressions for a tearless species.)
My favorite thing about Star Trek VI, and something for which I am willing to forgive nearly any fault, is its political nature. That is to say, not its allegorical political nature, but the way in which the film involves itself in the fictional politics of Star Trek. Always my favorite thing.
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I loved the space battle parts and it's always cool to see an Excelsior class (I can almost overlook the complete lack of phasers in the movie...almost) but the rest really blew. The shape-shifter stuff is really tough to even watch and the racist comments make Starfleet seem like the Galactic Empire more than Star Trek. Spock mind-rapes Valaris for information (he'd sure not do that on TOS). All the Shakespere stuff is terrible...just awful. I'm not suprised Gene considered it apocryphal.
Best part of the movie: the ending. It was well handled and a good send off for the original crew.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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The racist comments weren't by everyone. McCoy is pretty quiet, with the only notable comment by him during the dinner being "That's not true". And he immedietly wants to go over to Kronos One to help the injured, regardless of whether they are Klingons. Uhura's pretty quiet too. Chekov does make that "Guess who's coming to dinner" quip, but that was so brilliant, I'll allow it. And Kirk does have his reasons. Having your son murdered will cloud your judgement.
We only see two Enterprise crewman making actual out and out racist comments. And, guess what? They turn out to be murderers. So it's a bit unfair to use them as a typical example.
And yes, Spock wouldn't mind rape someone in TOS. But TUC isn't TOS. It's about 25 years later. And, guess what? People change. TOS Spock wouldn't force a mind meld like that, but I can completely see the TWOK Spock, or the TUC Spock (who are the most similar ones, considering that Spock was a bit out of it in TVH and TFF) doing it.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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quote: Originally Posted By Capt.Blair245 He said that?
You call yourself a Trek fan?! You should be able to recall all references from all episodes and movies to fit in around here.
Sorry FG, I'm 13! I grew up thinking Star Trek was started by a bald English/French guy... Not some fat,old geezer with more ego than brains...
-------------------- Graffiti decorations/under a sky of dust/a constant wave of tension/on top of broken trust/the lessons that you taught me/I learned were never true Now I find myself in question, Guilty by association,
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A clip in the Star Trek 25th Anniversary Special shows the TUC dinner scene being filmed, and reveals snippets of the dialogue prior to editing, notably a biting line by Brigadeer Kerla, accusing, �You hypocritically presume that your democratic system gives you a moral prerogative to force other cultures to conform to your politics.�
The film�s screenplay reveals the original structure of the dinner scene. As edited in the final film, it seems the Enterprise crew is arguing with the Klingons, but, as the script reveals, it was written so that it starts out as an argument with the Klingons, and ends up with the Enterprise crew arguing amongst themselves!
Here�s select text from the script. Material used in the final film is boldfaced (some of it was altered slightly).
CHANG Come now, Captain,, this dinner is off the record: in space all warriors are cold warriors.
SCOTTY We have never tried to.....
KERLA You hypocritically presume that your democratic system gives you a moral prerogative to force other cultures to conform to your politics.
McCOY That's not true.....!
KERLA No?
Uhura turns to the Klingon next to her - all tact.
UHURA General, are you fond of Shakespeare?
He looks at her, his hands and mouth full of food. Ugh!
Chekov pursues.
CHEKOV Ve do not impose democracy on others. Ve do believe that every planet has a sovereign claim to human rights.
AZETBUR (Spits) "Human rights". Even the name is racist. The Federation is basically a "Homo Sapiens" only club.....
Spock reacts to this. Chang is amused.
CHANG Present company excepted, to be sure...
UHURA Well, I suppose we're not perfect.
SCOTTY (rising) Don't let them put words in your mouth! I haven't served 30 years in the engine room of a Starship to be accused of gunboat diplomacy!
KERLA In any case, we know where this is leading, the annihilation of our culture. Klingons will replace those on the lowest rung of the Federation employment ladder, taking menial jobs and performing them for lower pay......
CHEKOV That's economics, not racism!
UHURA But you have to admit it adds up to the same thing.
McCOY Don't be naive, Commander!
UHURA Who are you calling "naive"?
Kirk stares sullenly down the table throughout this.
CHEKOV We're explorers, not diplomats!
McCOY Starfleet's killed an awful lot of natural phenomena in the name of "exploration"......
SCOTTY We follow orders......
CHEKOV Since when has THAT been an excuse? Diplomacy must resolve these.....
SCOTTY Right! Leave it to the politicians to muck it up and leave us defenseless....!
A cough interrupts the fight. All eyes on Gorkon. The Klingons conceal their amusement.
GORKON Well. I see we have a long way to go.
As written, this would have given the minor characters meatier roles, and allowed them, for once, to actually disagree. However, as fun as the scene is, many of the lines don�t feel right for the characters, and it�s not surprising that they were not used.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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And in case anyone thought only Chang was spouting off quotations...
Spock: �I intend you to replace me.� Valeris: �I could only succeed you, sir.� from Thomas Jefferson: �I succeed him. No one could replace him.�
Chang: �Don�t wait for the translation! Answer me now!� from U.N. ambassador Adlai Stevenson, speaking to the Soviet ambassador during the Cuban Missle crisis, "Do you deny that these are your missiles? Don't wait for the translation, answer me now. And I'm prepared to wait until hell freezes over for your answer, Mr. Ambassador."
Martia: �I thought I would assume a pleasing shape.� from The devil hath power To assume a pleasing shape. --WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE Hamlet, II, ii, 628
As to the President's statement: �Let us redefine progress to mean just because we can do a thing, does not necessarily mean we must do that thing.� It sounds familair to me, but I can't place a source.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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