posted
I think a big part of the story problems with ST6 is that its production was rushed in order to get it out for the 25th anniversary year, and that Paramount hired other writers to work on the script, which Meyer and Denny Martin Flynn took over, which wasted time. The script always feels second draft to me...mostly there but lacking some refining to fix the some problems.
Like Chang...the literary quotes in TWOK are very specific and relate to the story. Here they just feel like "look, we can quote Shakespeare!"
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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I wished they had filmed the original script idea of having Kirk and crew come out of retirement and having Kirk tracking them down. the original script had Sulu playing taxi driver and Uhura as a radio show host...
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quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: I wished they had filmed the original script idea of having Kirk and crew come out of retirement and having Kirk tracking them down. the original script had Sulu playing taxi driver and Uhura as a radio show host...
I disliked that idea. As if after all those years in Starfleet they'd actually have to take crap jobs like that. It also wouldn't have worked because there wasn't enough time between the movies for that to feel believeable.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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capped
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posted
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Come to think of it, didn't the president have a similar style name in the ST VI novel? It's been a long while since I read it.
President Ra-Ghoratrei
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posted
Here they just feel like "look, we can quote Shakespeare!"
Yes, and the rest of the movie feels like "look, we can do real-word political parallels too! Federation Daily headline: Chancellor Gorkontsjov of Klingian Empire seeks peace and rapproachment after disaster with Tsjernaxis", but it's still one of Trek's better efforts.
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posted
The main disapointment in the movie for me is the complete lack of phaser fire in the ship combat.
Pretty silly really. The KBOP could have strafed the Enterprise and been long gone before any retaliation and when the fire-while-cloaked-and-kick-your-ass-KBOP is discovered, everyone pounds on it with only HALF their arsenal?
Smaaaart.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The main disapointment in the movie for me is the complete lack of phaser fire in the ship combat.
And that is why I hate Star Trek fans.
But...
quote:The KBOP could have strafed the Enterprise and been long gone before any retaliation
How do you know that the BOP could fire disrupters while cloaked? Maybe only the torpedoes worked?
Besides, Chang obviously wasn't in any hurry to destroy Kirk. He was prolonging the experience, making Kirk realise he was helpless.
quote:and when the fire-while-cloaked-and-kick-your-ass-KBOP is discovered, everyone pounds on it with only HALF their arsenal?
Smaaaart.
Christ, yes. With phasers as well, the BOP might have been destroyed in 3 seconds, instead of 6. Think of the time saved!
And when have original series ships ever fired phasers and torpedoes simultaniously anyway?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The main disapointment in the movie for me is the complete lack of phaser fire in the ship combat.
Yeah, Lord know that's more annoying than the plot holes, clumsy writing, or characterization inconsistencies.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
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posted
Well, with all those "plot holes, clumsy writing, or characterization inconsistencies", all I have left to look forward to in that movie is the space battle!
Besides, I'm a starship modeler: we look for stuff like that more than most people.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And when have original series ships ever fired phasers and torpedoes simultaniously anyway?
It's never said they cant either....it was just never done because any TOS effects were likely re-used shots from even older episodes.
My point is that they could have been taking pot shots at the KBOP with their energy weapons (the ones that cover ther entire ship) instead of their relativly slow torpedos that they fired only after they knew exactly where the enemy was.
Couldnt they have set the torpedos to detonate near the KBP's last known position? Even such "depth charge" tactics beat nothing at all.
If Chang wasnt such a showboat, the Enterprise would've been destroyed before Excelsior got there.
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posted
This is the most sorrowful detail of Trek today, that Nemesis, with its unprecedented detail and skill of showing a space battle, should be the last movie.
Oh, if they'd only done a DS9/TNG war arc movie, with the dynamics of Starfleet ships vs. Dominion or some other power, coupled with the quality shit of "Nemesis".
The "Nemesis" VFX were the best ever, all categories, with real 3D maneuvers, all the different weapons the Sovereign carries plus a modernization of the way phaser fire reacts in space (kind of like spraying party-fizz from an aerosol can). Even the jump to warp looked better than the old "suck spagetti into mouth"-effect.
What I don't get is why the Trek-battles would stay so slow and sluggish from TWOK all the way to "Generations" when "Return of the Jedi" had showed, in 1983 already, how dynamic space battles could really be?
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posted
I think it is only to Kirk's credit that he didn't fire a single shot of ANY type until he knew where Chang was. Random potshots and "depth charges" and might be fine if Kirk were hunting down Chang, but that was not his intention at all. Chang was hunting Kirk, and Kirk was only trying to get to transporter range of Khitomer to save the President.
We saw little of the maneuvers performed in the battle, but to me it looks Kirk was seeking for openings, and Chang was systematically blocking those, firing only when Kirk was getting too close to the real goal. For Chang, wouldn't it have been a splendid development to have the UFP Prez assassinated, and *then* have Kirk beam down to the scene of the crime, with a flimsy story of a "conspiracy", and no alibi?
posted
The only problem with that theory is that we dont see Enterprise trying to get to khitomer at all once the shooting starts....it's just sort of sitting there looking for a way to find Chang while it's getting pounded.
If they'd been desperately limping towards the planet when Excelsior showed up it would've played a lot better. As it stands, the momentum of the whole "race against time" to save the President is lost once the battle starts.
I think for Chang a better senario (and less risky) would be to personally destroy the man that assasinated Gorkon (and then escaped from Klingon-alcatraz) as the nefarious starship captain was preparing to kill the new chancelor as well.
I dont think Chang would have stopped eliminating his enemies until he was chancelor himself.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Nim: What I don't get is why the Trek-battles would stay so slow and sluggish from TWOK all the way to "Generations" when "Return of the Jedi" had showed, in 1983 already, how dynamic space battles could really be?
I will make an exception for the USS Defiant, but all other starship battles were waged as though the audience were looking at submarines. The types of battles we were seeing with the unrealistic maneuvering of Mirandas, Galaxys, Nebulas, etc., should never have happened. It would be like watching "Hunt for Red Oktober" and seeing the subs pitch and turn like the Battle of Endor...unbelieveable. It's more fun to watch perhaps, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
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posted
I agree, having Chang kill the starfleet assassans would have been a smart thing to do... but the plan was to have the ships start fighting and perpetuate a war.
The Enterprise couldn't lower their shields to transport, so they had to destroy the BoP first. The Enterprise took a pounding with shields up, imagine what those torpedoes would have done with no shields (think: Grissom)
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