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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » General Trek » How many Borg does it take to screw in a lightbulb? (Page 1)

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Author Topic: How many Borg does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
Member # 35

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The answer, as I'm sure you old hands remember, is "all of them." 8)

But that's not really what I want to talk about. We think of the Borg as a group consciousness, but are they really? Is the Borg Mind the totality of the units within the Collective, or does it come from somewhere else? I think it's the latter. . .

You see, it seems quite obvious that the personality of the the average drone plays no part in the running of the Collective. We can't be sure how many drones were taken by assimilation, and how many are actually born into the collective (like the baby in "Q Who?" - and a method that seems to have fallen out of favour). But even assuming a 50% split, that's billions of individuals who have had their brains and bodies co-opted against their will. Yet no sign appears in the 'overMind' that assimilation is a bad thing. Drones are apparently conscious underneath (sometimes) and are capable of having their memories and experience accessed, but the original individual remains powerless.

Therefore where does the consciousness of the collective come from? The Queen? Let's table that for a second (if not indefinitely - the whole concept of the Queen has irreversibly damaged the concept of the Borg in many ways). There have been no signs of any Borg Superbrains, unless there are features of the Power Distribution Nodes we know nothing about. The only other candidate are the nanoprobes - do they represent the true CPU of the Collective, with the drones reduced to mere parasite host bodies? Nanoprobes are resourceful little beasties, yet ultimately harmless until they enter a hostbody they can reconfigure to allow them a connection with the hive Mind.

This idea would also allow for the existence of a Queen or Queens. She would then become a more localised control node, an essential one in First Contact because originally there cannot have been more than a few dozen drones on the Sphere, and they would have been completely severed from the Collective during their temporal excursion. The main consciousness of the Collective could be embodied in the Queen, and easily replaced. In addition to the two we've seen, there could have been a third on the Cube in "The Best of Both Worlds" that we never saw - and all running a local copy of MS Borg Queen 95 or whatever (hence the 3-dimensional comment?).

(another point: my hypothesis that the individual Borg original personalities do not impact on the overall Collective can also be proved by First Contact. The SphereBorg were deattached from the Collective yet none of their original personalities (including those of assimilated Cardassians and Klingons) did not surface; and they would have soon been 'ouvoted' by ex-Starfleet Borg, yet did not waver.)

To summarise: something controls the Borg, yet it's not a group Mind that is a sum of the parts. It's not the Queen because she's replaceable (unless she IS just a software copy - we keep getting told how soulless the Borg are, after all). I don't think it's a never-seen Borg superMind because there's been no evidence of one, and such a control freak mechanism woouldn't send drones back in time with just software in command. It has to be the nanoprobes, mechanical beings that act by blind instinct until in sufficient numbers (across more than one host?) whose only motivation is to remake non-mechanical life in its own image.

(Maybe V'Ger did come from there after all. . .)

Thoughts?

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Phase 1: Steal Underpants
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit!


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Dax
Paradox
Member # 191

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I have a few questions -

-is each Borg ship a unique collective mind?
-does every cube have a queen?
-do the Borg reproduce?

Oh, the baby Borg in "Q-Who" might have been a normal baby that was assimilated.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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The last question may never be answered. If the baby had been, well, created, then they reproduce. Maybe it was being grown into a queen (was the baby's gender specified?), whether born a Borg or assimilated.

I had another thought just now. . . remember the Krell from "Forbidden Planet?" They developed mighty machines to bring out their subconscious minds, and perhaps that's what the Borg are - everyone's subconscious desire to control, to acquire and keep on acquiring. . . but maybe that's a little too metaphysical. The Borg as "Creatures from the Id?"

But: consider the Krell "Great Machine" What might their ships have looked like? We know they once travelled between worlds, before giving it up to explore the inner mind and artificial intelligence (much as the 2001 aliens are implied to have done by Arthur C Clarke).

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Phase 1: Steal Underpants
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit!


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Kosh
Perpetual Member
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I think each cube must be unique, or it's own collective, controlled by a larger collective. If the Cubes didn't have a certin amount of autonomy, they wouldn't be able to operate so far from Borg space. I have assumed the Queen was a central proseser.
Interesting idea about the probes being in charge!! Perhaps some enemy of the world the Borg started on, developed the technology to destroy the population of the planet, and got more then they bargined for. Or even the original species were working on the tech themselves, and were taken over, like the people of Minos, in "Arsenal of Freedom".

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
Member # 35

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Is there a Queen on every cube, every planet, and so forth? Yes. . . and no. 8)

Remember, the Borg are jacks of all trades, masters of none. They have the ability to do anything to a certain limit, after which they assimilate someone who can do the rest. I don't think we want to overstate the importance of the Queen to the overall operation of the Collective - she's a tool like any other drone. With the abilities of the full Collective within reach, the need for such centralized control becomes moot. But when circumstances require, the Queen comes to the fore.

But she can do more than that. She's an interface between the Collective and the assimilated - on a few occasions. One was needed to persuade Picard to speak for them - she failed. Another was needed to run the Borg in the 21st Century, and took on a secondary role as seducer of Data (for his codes, and that his distinctiveness be given to the Collective). A third was needed to persuade Seven of Nine for similar reasons.

Why then didn't one appear to negotiate with Janeway in "Scorpion II?" Maybe one wasn't on the cube, an no where near either. Maybe they wanted to keep the existence of a Queen secret to people ignorant of the events of "First Contact." Maybe with all the other stuff going on with Species 8472, she was too busy to work on a small science project - the Collective had been hit hard, and would need backup processors.

It seems clear there must be levels of individual intelligence within individual drones. Locutus was very aware, but was a failure and a weak spot in the collective. Anneka Hansen had had her original personality effectively wiped, however, as had the woman in the TNG novel "Vendetta." "Unity" showed that ex-Borg recovered in varying degrees from assimilation.

As some of you may know, I work in business-oriented computing. That means networks, and I tried to come up with a way of putting it simply. So, let's go to the analogy!

The Borh are a mainframe - drones are dumb terminals. But the full processing ability and knowledge store of the Collective are spread all across the network in mcuh the same way electrons are dissociated around an atom. The Queen is a control terminal that can only be active when made so from somewhere else on the mainframe.

One final question: have you ever stopped to consider why the Queen first appeared in two pieces in "First Contact?" Perhaps as purely localised CPUs they don't need to be ambulatory. As for why they look the same, that's because they're not 'really' even remotely organic. No way would the core out a human CNS and just leave the skin - Data was in fact snogging his own future, a covering of skin over a machine.

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"Screw you guys - I'm going home. . ." - Eric Cartman



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Michael Dracon
aka: NightWing or Altair
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Why didn't the Queen talk to Janeway instead of Seven? Maybe because the Borg knew that the Federation couldn't be trusted. Or maybe because the Federation disabled the FC Queen...

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"You don't need a gun."
"That depends on your definition of 'save sex'."

from: 'Goldeneye'


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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Hardly. The Borg fully intended to renege on the deal anyway. And so what if the FC Queen was gone? They could obviously get another.
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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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I'm wary of assigning any more importance to the "queen" than necessary. They have been observed to have two functions.

1.) An organizing influence on drones who are disconnected from the Collective proper, (First Contact), or who are perhaps likely to become disconnected for whatever reason. (The Best of Both Worlds)

2.) Speaker for the Borg, ala Locutus.

In working on my upcoming Borg page, which will hopefully address all this, I've had a few thoughts. First of all, I dislike the word queen. It was never spoken in First Contact, and I only vaguely remember it being used in Dark Frontier. And I might be mistaken about the latter.

So, in fine treknological form, I've come up with my own awkward and unnecessary designation. What we call a queen is in reality a Collective Nexus Proxy Unit, or CNPU. In simplist terms, the CNPU can stand in for the entire Collective when such a need arises. And there are two main reasons such a need would arise.

1.) We have seen that, if seperated from the Collective, drones do not have the ability to create their own. For this reason, if a ship is likely to be seperated, a CNPU or two is sent along to take temporary control in an emergency.

2.) Whenever possible, the Borg like to conserve energy. Why send a fleet when one cube will do? Why engage in battle when the mere threat of assimilation might be enough to send a species into panic? And so the Borg send out their famed speeches first. But those aren't really invites to negotiation. When the Borg say "Resistance is Futile", they mean it.

However, there are times when they might want to be a bit more subtle. Dealing with Picard, for instance. Or Data. Or Seven. But the deal with Janeway didn't require any subtlety, because the Borg never intended to let Voyager out of their grasp.

So why can't the Collective deal with he second reason directly? It's my contention that a collective consciousness as the Borg finds it difficult to deal with such limited minds on their level. How do you explain the sensations of being a hivemind to someone who has never experienced them? The obvious answer is to assimilate them into it, which is what the Borg do. But another option is to use a go-between. A speaker.

As for the Collective itself, I'm going to need a bit more time to organize my thoughts on the subject.

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"Just because you're floating doesn't mean you haven't drowned."
--
They Might Be Giants


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Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
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I kind of hope there is a central superbrain or complex located on the planet the borg originated from. Maybe like the terminator's Sky-Net, being defended no matter what the cost.
I mean, if they can't lose borg drones more than an arm or a leg (Crusher-speak) my guess is they don't want to move their HQ around, seeing as it could be the only truly unique key-member of the collective, the computer that formed a self-conscience.
When the borg then rose to power there must have been some neighbouring species fighting like hell to crush this threat, making the borg fortifying their primal solar system into a, well, fortress!

(disengaging hyper-ventilation mode)

Anyway, that's a good story to end a season with! Hee Hee Hee... Kaboom!!!

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And on that highly succesful burn I'm going into the polarbear-cage to get me some wallets
so I can get some beer-money. Adios! "Daaaeaehh" "Splash"

Chris Farley in SNL, bless his soul.


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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The moment anything centralized is introduced it ruins the Borg. The "queen" we can get around with some clever thinking. A central HQ? Bad idea, in my opinion.

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"Recombination, then Viacom; Safeway."
--
Soul Coughing


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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Yes. Forget centralized brains. We agree there must be processing centres, but even they may not be completely necessary. The Borg are a sum of their parts, it's WHAT parts they're the sum of that we're concerned with here.
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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
Member # 35

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Just saw "The Omega Directive" in which Seven says the Collective processes each drone's memories to determine what should be made available for all - what is relevant, in other words. This reduces the drones's personality and memories to that of a file on a network, and confirms that the Collective is more of an Operating System than a sum of the parts of it.

But then again, we've always been told that Borg cannot intuit and develop new technology - hence their needing the nanoprobes modified for them in "Scorpion II." Yet in "Omega" they're happily developing stuff. AND even taking account of primitive cultures' myths as part of a trail of investigation. We're never going to tie the Borg down when the writers keep messing things up. . .


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Sunspot
Wasting Away
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How many cubes were involved int he Omega Project? Was the entire Collective?

If it was only a small group of ships, the queen(s) may have realized that if their goal was to be achieved (finding the Omega), then the lore was somewhat valuable. if the queens are at all self-controlled, as in not totally collective-ized, then maybe they acted without sanction from the collective when following the trail of Omega particles, and the queens eventually began to revert to the ability to create things on their own, without assimilation.

The cubes in this team that may have existed in the Borg's Omega project may have assimilated the ability to allow theh collective to develop new methods and technology, which slowly filtered through to the rest of the colletive minds, since there must be trillions of billions of minds, and each queen may have thought it necessary to decide wether the data on creativity was needed, since it took so long for the upgrade to filter to them, and there is no CPU toattach an order to just install the new config files to the ships operational ability folder thing... *LOL*

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"She's never letting me forget, I've always been an idiot"
-The Verve Pipe


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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I've never really understood where this "Borg can't create" business comes from, aside from providing a plot point for "Scorpion". I mean, assuming that the Collective has access to all the thoughts of literally trillions of sentient minds, the Borg should be the smartest entity in the galaxy, with thoughts on a level that we can't even begin to comprehend.

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"Recombination, then Viacom; Safeway."
--
Soul Coughing


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Hobbes
 Homicidal Psycho Jungle Cat 
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I have to agree that the nanoprobes control the collective. I don't know what theories have been introduced in the past, but here are some of mine.

1) A humaniod species in the Delta Quadrant were working with nano technology possibly with AI. When the nanoprobes became self aware they infected their humaniod creators. This effectively assimilated them and the nanoprobes controlled them. There goal was to dominate and protect themselves by purifying the planet's species and assimilated its entire population becoming the Borg.

2) The nanoprobes were a living space borne race, they found the planet and assimilated its population since they'd need them to do work, build ships and so forth.

Make sense? I'm rather partially to the first one. I think the introduction of the queen was a bad idea.

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"Let's make sure that history never forgets the name...Enterprise."
Federation Starship Datalink



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