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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » General Trek » How many Borg does it take to screw in a lightbulb? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: How many Borg does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Sol System
two dollar pistol
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Ok, here is the essence of the theory that will go up on my Borg page. Bear with me, as this is just the rough version.

The Borg Collective is a single mind made up of all the sentient beings assimilated into it. However, it is more than the sum of its parts. I believe that the "will" of the Borg is a self-aware entity that resides in the network made up of all those minds, but that is also seperate from it.

To clarify, let me say a bit about the origin of this intelligence. We know that the original Borg were a lot like us, until they "learned to include the synthetic". So if we take a trip back in time, we see these protoborg setting up computer networks everywhere, much like we're doing here on Earth. But these protoborg went a few steps further. How much better to take that cellphone and just implant it underneath your skin, no? Etc, etc. Eventually, you have a society in which almost everyone is connected physically to this great network.

And then, one day, something new appears. A new intelligence emerges from the network. This is what guides the newborn Borg, and organizes the Collective. This is what speaks through the "queens".

What do you think, sirs?

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"Recombination, then Viacom; Safeway."
--
Soul Coughing


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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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Not bad. But you mustn't discount the nanoprobes, not with nanotechnology possibly a big part of our future. The idea of a new entity growing up in the communications network isn't new - see Orson Scott Card's Ender trilogy - and you could well imagine it maybe learning to hack into the programming of medical nanomachines to reconfigure them for its own use.

This then gives us a Borg Overmind which is spread across the whole Collective, loaded in the RAM rather than the storage memory that are the drones' brains. When a certain part of the collective needs to be cut off, or a more one-to-one dialogue is needed, it produces a Queen. Or tries out the Locutus option. Or just chooses an ex-human Borg who happens to be handy.


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Elim Garak
Plain and simple
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Considering the Borg Queen said in First Contact, "We evolved to include the synthetic," I'm skeptical about the theories regarding the nanoprobes...

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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The nanoprobes probably play a huge role in the Collective. Interestingly enough, now that I think about it, they were present from the very beginning. (Remember how the cube stitched itself back together in "Q Who"?) I'm not sure whether this consciousness resides there, though. On the other hand, there isn't any evidence against it doing so, and it does fit with what we've seen.

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"Recombination, then Viacom; Safeway."
--
Soul Coughing


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Elim Garak
Plain and simple
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Well, I meant I'm skeptical of the theories regarding the nanoprobes assimilating a species against that species's (the first one) will. I doubt it happened that way. After all, the humanoid Borg obviously wanted it that way, the way I take that line.

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")


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Kosh
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Probes: We are Borg, you will be assimalated,your organic thought processes are inferior, you will evolve to include the synthetic, resistance is futile!!

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Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside of a dog, it's to dark to read. Groucho Marx


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Black Knight
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Well there's always the issue of 7 of 9 and how she always says that the nanoprobes are "programmed" to do this or that.

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A-"Dippidy Doo." Q-"What forms on your dippity early in the morning?"--Johnny Carson



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The First One
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed
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Yes, and if the nanoprobes are so versatile, being programmable for things even the Borg haven't considered, maybe that was the flaw in their original use. Maybe they were just medical nanobots that had their programming changed or corrupted.
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Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
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Outer limits ep comes to mind

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And on that highly succesful burn I'm going into the polarbear-cage to get me some wallets
so I can get some beer-money. Adios! "Daaaeaehh" "Splash"

Chris Farley in SNL, bless his soul.


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jh
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Why can't the queen be a router instead of CPU? If the Borg are like the net then there is no central unit but each cube would be like a server host, and each drone like a site. The queens rout information back and forth, helping to screen out stuff that doesn't matter, etc. But they don't have to be a repostitory, or a command center.

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Proverbs for Paranoids, 3: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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We know that, in the right situation, the "queen" acts as a nexus for the budding Collective. (First Contact)

We also know that they speak for the Borg in certain instances where direct one on one contact with an individual is required. (First Contact, Dark Frontier)

I would guess that simple router functions are handled by other systems, since there is no need for such a device to be personally mobile. Of course, when circumstances call for more complex functions, (Again, in FC) then it seems the "queen" can handle them. But she seems more complex than a command relay system.

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"Recombination, then Viacom; Safeway."
--
Soul Coughing


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jh
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Well, analogies always come a bit short so let's elaborate because I personally think that the router analogy is more accurate than the CPU analogy.

As far as acting as a nexus for a budding collective goes: I think that's probably true, but why does it have to be a nexus in a processing sense? Why can't it be a nexus in a routing sense, in which the development of the new collective is routed through the queen? Commands, which are simply most likely calculations of probability, necessity, etc, that are done by the computing power of the whole hive mind are routed through the queen and then disseminated to the drones. There's nothing about the forming of the new collective that suggests there has to be a CPU or that the decisions have to be made on the spot. The same is true of the needing to communicate with the individual. Just because they speak through one drone doesn't make that drone the CPU. Take Seven's case when she was elected to speak for the collective to Janeway. There's nothing in the role of 'designated speaker' qua designated speaker that makes it necessary for them to have functions outside of the normal drone. I don't think the case is compelling for either necessarily but in a minute I'll explain why I think the router analogy is more attractive with these things being equal.

In fact I think it makes more sense for the queen to be mobile when the primary function is that of a router. The further removed from the Collective (with a capital C) that any cube, etc is, the greater strain the directing of its information will present to that portion of the hive mind that is responsible for it, just do to the constraints of messaging across great distances and other physcial restraints we may not no about. Some amount of independent thought might be necessary but that may be more of a 'spinal' reflex ie, your spine intercepts pain messages and commands a reflex that pulls you away from the fire rather than waiting for the signal to go all the way to the brain and back, Borg drones likely have something equivalent. Plus, if we accept that in FC the queen wasn't going to stop with just destroying the E but was going to continue with the assimilation of Earth, and the AQ then it makes sense that you would send a new router to develop the network connections necessary to maintain the flow of information to the rest of the hive.

The real advantage of the router analogy over the CPU is that it preserves the Collective consciousness. If we take the CPU analogy we are by defintion going to have to accept some focus point of the Collective. With the router analogy we can at the very least accept that the Collective is non-focused with each router/queen disseminating information to the overall hive so that it can be computed and re-disseminated. The router analogy prevents the problems of needing a central Overmind by allowing the flow of information to be restricted simply by 'coding' or prioritzing. The router would still have to designate the priority but that represents a low amount of 'centralized' processing as opposed to the high amount the CPU analogy needs.

It presents us with a picture of the Borg as being like the internet, a picture which does two things: One, it makes the Borg more thematically attractive from a pure creative standpoint (the future of our society in a dystopian sort of way) and; Two, maintains the cohesivness of the idea of the Collective. We may not be able to makes sense of how such a purely nebulous Collective consciousness might work but we can't even figure out our own consciousness and at least this way we have a 'the whole is bigger than the sum' thing.

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Proverbs for Paranoids, 3: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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I'm not entirely sure who you're arguing with.

No one on this thread, so far as I can tell, is suggesting that the "queen" is a wholely independant entity. It's just that she does more than simply route Borg commands around. She speaks for the Borg, and that implies that the Collective sinks a bit more of it's total knowledge into her.

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"Recombination, then Viacom; Safeway."
--
Soul Coughing


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jh
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I'm not arguing with anyone really, so much as I'm just getting an idea out there. I think that the general idea floating around (and one of the reasons so many people are down on the Borg) is that just because we saw her speak for the Borg she has to be somehow 'more' individual than the other Borg. I'm just trying to give an idea of how we can get away from that, because, you know, the Borg are cooler if they really are a Collective.

What I'm saying, though, is that just because of the functions we've seen her perform don't jump to the conclusion that they've centralized or 'sunk' more of their knowledge into her. She may just have more access than the standard drone without being more centralized, which, in my mind, preserves the Collective (and all of their spookiness, fear, alienness, etc) a little better. Keeps them more interesting as it were.

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Proverbs for Paranoids, 3: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.


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Sol System
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I think we've misunderstood each other. I'm not trying to imply that the "queens" have any individuality at all. But they are invested with...well, it's hard to describe, really. We know that the "queen" has the capability of taking on the role of not just a router, but a central nexus. In these situations, if she dies, the whole Collective shorts out. (Or at least the local one. But then I don't think a "queen" is invested with these speaking abilities normally anyway.)

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"Recombination, then Viacom; Safeway."
--
Soul Coughing


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