Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
It's been mentioned before that one of the projects I'd love to work out is a real, viable Federation Charter/Constitution that is not simply a pisspoor minorly-edited UN charter. I've given it a lot of thought & the one primary founding element I have difficulties with is the nature of the Federation.
When Trek started, it was somewhat implied that the Federation was "America in space." When TNG & DS9 came along, it seemed more like "the EU in space." But...I have problems with some of that.
The two major contributors to my personal philosophies are Robert Heinlein & Daniel Quinn; they mesh very well because they both have a similar message: "there's more than one right way to live & that's necessary to survive." I think that the Federation is about the same thing...but it's hard to pin down. So much is based on what we know in America & the West, & we see that reflected in Federation policies. for instance, would a planet ruled by something akin to Sharia law be eligible for admission? It's been said that a single unified world government is necessary of admission; does the format matter?
It seems that the Federation Council is the majore seat of power...does this make them parliamentary? How much power does the President wield? What's his relation to the Speaker of the Council? Is the President popularly elected, or chosen from the Council?
Currencies & economics...it's a touchy issue. How does it get rated? Is there a point?
These are just a few questions & points I can think of in this bloody buggery heat. No doubt you have others. Let's talk.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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I would imagine that the format does matter, a Hitler would not be a good addition, as the principals seem to be personal freedoms.
I have always thought that the idea of a currenciless society was BS, Starfleet may not use cash, but I do not see the idea of having wealth changing that much. Maybe cashless, but still using some kind of e-money. Ratings for this, good question.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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And yet, Ardana from "The Cloud Minders" (TOS) was a member with a segregated caste system that severely limited the freedom (and the health) of a major percentage of its population.
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
One of the criteria mentioned frequently in 24th-century Trek is that to be eligable, a planet must have achieved a peaceful, unified global government. That leaves a lot of room for individual variation. Heck, it'd be a fun project to see how many different forms of world government we could come up with...
One of the major ways to achieve such seems to be the elimination of physical need. Either through cultural influences, such as population control or some such, a world could ensure there is enough food and energy for all. Another way is technological, with fusion generators and industrial replicators. The latter would also render any conventional economic model moot.
It's been discussed in the past, but my personal stance is that the Federation has an economy, but that it doesn't revolve around cash. Earth and its affiliated colonies, as well as other worlds of similar technological state, would have no need even for that. To simplify further, the Federation economy is cashless, and Earth's is moneyless. Be an interesting dynamic to work out in detail.
The Federation Council is likely an idealised United Nations -- with a central legislative Council that handles the big issues, a smaller Security Council that handles issues with the most solid Federation members and external (or internal) Threat powers, such as the mess with the Klingons and Genesis. There would also be various scientific and solciological councils and whatnot, aid organisations, and the paramilitaristic peacekeeping/exploratory force -- Starfleet.
There's more, but supper beckons.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
And yet, Ardana from "The Cloud Minders" (TOS) was a member and it had a caste system that severely limited the freedom (and the health) of a major percentage of its population.
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Council = unicameral legislature Economics = extropian/post-scarcity/freaky reputation metrics
(Though, really, aside from the simple fact of their existence, there's nothing solid ((which is to say, canon)) about the Federation's various governmental bodies, and while I always wanted episodes filled with the minutiae of running it, there's something to be said for letting the audience add their own ideals to your idealized society.)
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
There was, I believe, something called the "Seventh Guarantee" mentioned at one point in TNG, which seemed to be an allusion to a Federation equivalent of the USA's Bill of Rights or France's Declaration of the Rights of Man. I vaguely recall a couple of fan-written documents entitled "Guarantees of Sentient Rights" or some such.
I think I would have to agree that the Federation has evolved into something more like the EU than the UN or the USA... it's a unified sovereign entity of its own, but with very distinct member components. There's elements like the rank of Sarek, who was apparently "Vulcan Ambassador to the Federation"... which is like saying that Delaware has an ambassador to the US Congress. (Of course the Federation was originally supposed to be a direct analogue of the idealized, effective UN, where each nation DOES have an ambassador.)
Anyway, I think that the foundation of the "economy" of the Federation is based on the principle of effectively free energy. Remember some scene from TNG where Worf and Data were trying to come up with a gift to give... er, someone... and they just replicated said gifts? Part of the idea of gifts in today's world � aside from "it's the thought that counts" � is that there's an element of effort, or value, or resources that were expended to obtain that gift for the recipient. That obviously isn't present in the Federation. Items are more important for their historical, cultural, or intrinsic value. (Like Professor Galen's gift to Picard, that Kurlan Naiskos thing, or the bat'leth that was given to the Paris-Torres baby.)
One could arguably say that once a society achieves the development of warp drive (certainly a prerequisite for Federation membership, considering the Prime Directive), the energy required to propel starships at FTL speeds is sufficient to provide for many general needs for the civilian population as well. (Although I would assume that, if Earth uses antimatter reactors for planet-side power generation, that they're a HELL of a lot more reliable than the Enterprise-D's warp core!) Therefore, if a civilization is capable of providing its own energy needs, then the whole concept of a money-based economy becomes almost useless.
As the saying goes, "time is money," and just as important as time is the effort required. Thus, in today's world, money is � in a way � a representation of the time and energy and resources required to create an object. Once the energy becomes effectively limitless, the value of items like food and clothing (obtained through replicators, by the time of TOS, or TNG at the absolute latest) would approach zero. Or put another way, if it costs effectively nothing to expend energy to create all the food and clothes you need, then the value of said food and clothes is meaningless. Thus, you're left with resources and time as valuable elements. But resources are � in TOS's and TNG's time, anyway � effectively limitless as well, because based on the various shows, it seems that there are plenty of asteroids and moons and planets that can be mined for their minerals, and hydrogen is plentiful (Voyager's "Demon" notwithstanding, of course). Thus, you're left only with time. And arguably, once people don't have to expend energy on obtaining more resources for survival, people have plenty of time to spend doing whatever they want... or as Picard put it, "to better themselves." (Joseph Sisko's restaurant ring a bell?) Thus, for internal interactions between Federation citizens and member governments, it's purely a barter economy for raw materials, because everyone can make whatever they want. And for citizens, they often have all the materials they need, regardless.
(Sidenote: I wonder if the expression of greed in today's times is merely a human wish to be noticed, to be special, or to be "better" than others. Obtaining wealth allows one to obtain goods and resources to afford more leisure, and to obtain items that show off said wealth. But what's special about getting a brand-new yacht if it could be easily replicated, and everyone had one? Thus, I wonder if Humanity's greed didn't truly die out, but simply found a new outlet for effort. Stuff like "hoarding" knowledge and expertise, for example.)
Certainly, some kind of money � the ever-puzzling credit, of course � will still be needed for fluidity of moving and exchanging resources. There's a reason money was created in the first place. But it plays a much, much less important role, I think.
To compare with other governments out there, nations like the Klingon Empire are definitively resource-poor, and it even seems as if many inhabitants might live on a near-subsistence basis, even in TNG's time. Thus, money (the Klingon darsek or the Cardassian lek) would still be needed to regulate the transfer of resources. Also, for governmental trade, barter would effectively be the only real means of exchange. I imagine that stuff like gold-pressed latinum is simply a representation (for some societies) of the representative worth, and the resources needed to create the unit in the first place. I would argue that latinum, in the Ferengi Alliance, is probably more of a fiat currency (*cough*USDOLLAR*cough*) than any of the Ferengi characters we've seen would like to admit. Otherwise, you have to invoke some arguably-implausible technobabble about latinum being impossible to replicate or some such bullshit. It's only currency if people are willing to accept it. (Remember when the German Reichsmark was barely worth its weight as a firestarter?)
I'd keep rambling, but I lost my train of thought, and I need to go to bed.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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"Otherwise, you have to invoke some arguably-implausible technobabble about latinum being impossible to replicate or some such bullshit."
Um, this being the actual explanation given on TV, if I recall correctly.
Sarek is both a Federation ambassador and an ambassador to the Federation, depending on whether you want to run with the original series version of things or the modern one. (One could imagine that the UFP actually changed inbetween, from the loose UN model which seemed to prevail in TOS to the more cohesive nation-state present in DS9.) Now, I've got my own preferences, having attempted my own version of Shik's project, alas, many years ago; but I don't see any real answers to the questions posed.
[The Seventh Guarantee is the right against self-incrimination.)
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: One of the criteria mentioned frequently in 24th-century Trek is that to be eligable, a planet must have achieved a peaceful, unified global government. That leaves a lot of room for individual variation. Heck, it'd be a fun project to see how many different forms of world government we could come up with...
One of the major ways to achieve such seems to be the elimination of physical need. Either through cultural influences, such as population control or some such, a world could ensure there is enough food and energy for all. Another way is technological, with fusion generators and industrial replicators. The latter would also render any conventional economic model moot.
It's been discussed in the past, but my personal stance is that the Federation has an economy, but that it doesn't revolve around cash. Earth and its affiliated colonies, as well as other worlds of similar technological state, would have no need even for that. To simplify further, the Federation economy is cashless, and Earth's is moneyless. Be an interesting dynamic to work out in detail.
The Federation Council is likely an idealised United Nations -- with a central legislative Council that handles the big issues, a smaller Security Council that handles issues with the most solid Federation members and external (or internal) Threat powers, such as the mess with the Klingons and Genesis. There would also be various scientific and solciological councils and whatnot, aid organisations, and the paramilitaristic peacekeeping/exploratory force -- Starfleet.
There's more, but supper beckons.
--Jonah
Hmmm..I think the Federation of TOS definitely used some form of currentcy, and that the requirements of the TOS Federation were much less strict than in the TNG era. Possibly the whole "cold war" mentalaity of expansion between the Klingons and Federation made a planet's rescources more viable than their social standards.
By TNG things have drasticly changed- very probably because of replicator technology. At that point, the Federation could concentrate on social equality via replicator splendor and it's rapid expansion would provide land for any that chose to colonise a new world. It's probably the key draw for recruiting new worlds- and end to inequality and have-not classes of people.
I agree that the federation likely maintains some econemy, but it's probably more a strict raw materials/ technological expertise kind of thing. Unique crafts and foods would also be of high value in a system where anything could be reproduced if the "recipie" were available.
I dont think the UN charter would serve as more than a rough skeleton for a Federation Charter. Equal representation would be a must and no limited "security council" would work when the fates of trillions is at stake.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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I am still stuck on the incentive part for people to do something worthwhile for nothing. If humankind were capable of doing that things would be far better now. If near back to back world wars didn't change people, overall, I don't see where a few nukes falling would either.
I do agree with the Federation/Klingon cold war planet gethering idea. In times of need tolerances would be lower by far.
Any kind of expertise means little also, since most computers can be asked to answer the questions. Example of this is Braum(?) with LaForge in the holodeck working on whatever it was they were working on. Then he meets her in real life. So now we end up with time, resources, and knowledge not worth anything, although some knowledge would be worth something, advanced tech is about it.
What motivating factor is there to keep society from grinding to a halt from humankinds inbuilt laziness factor. Yes, some people wouldn't just sit there, but most would.
I am left thinking that the original idea is flawed, as the utopian life would be disasterous.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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I think that the utopian life is boring, and so humans have set up a peer-competitive social order of self-improvment and self challenge. Imagine if all the MTV and advertizing nonsense were slanted toward self improvment and the betterment of mankind- it'd catch on. Particularly after some hellish nuclear holocaust/ environmental devestation to recover from.
Also, with so many out exploring, Earth has plenty of rescources to spare to make it truly paradise.
As to the Holodeck thing, even Geordi could not make his "Leah Braums" hologram anything more "real" or imaginative than he himself designed it. Holograms like Vic Fontaine and Voyager's Doctor are the extremely rare exception to the rule- only asmall percentage of people would develop "holodeck addiction" and those would be people with poor social skills to start with.
Probably the one thing that is lacking in Trek is that humans have changed so little in all that time. Sure they go on and on about how "warpdrive/First Contact changed everything", but really, we see far more changes via the Industrial Revolution. Unless you go with Gene's "Better man" POV (which I much prefer to the TOS military-movies) wherein issues like prejeduce are not even considered- they've "outgrown" all that crap.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
Human nature obviously hasn't changed (plenty of examples of that in DS9), just human mentality on a large enough scale to make it seem like utopia. Whether a global nuclear war and meeting some pointy-eared aliens dressed in bathrobes would have the power to drive that change is another matter.
Registered: Nov 1999
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Adversity tends to breed character. And in the Trek universe's case, the adversity was Vietnam, followed closely by the Eugenics Wars, followed by Colonel Green's War, all of which led or contributed to what TOS referred to as the "Third World War". It was never WWIII until the TNG era. Led me to wonder if the name might refer to a war in the Third World that escalated to the point that it spilled over into the Second World, and eventually directly affected the First World.
I only bring all this up because I've been writing a history textbook take on the divergent history of Trek's 20th and 21st centuries. The geopolitical-socioeconomic screwiness is fascinating, to borrow a phrase.
Prior to WWI, no one had ever imagined a war could be that devastating or brutal. If we got a back-to-back-to-back-to-back mess of conflict that culminated in almost rendering the planet uninhabitable, I think that might shock us into action. I imagine for a little while after the Eugenics Wars and Third World War combo, people shot anyone who wanted to organise any sort of militia. "Controlling" people and resources probably went out of fashion for a few decades, which is most likely what led to the "Post-Atomic Horror" of anarchy and chaotic or nonexistenent infrastructure.
America seems to have been relatively unaffected, physically. They were able to launch the Charybdis mission, and even after things broke down, there was still enough for Cochrane and his team to build a warp testbed ship out of a Titan missile.
As for humanity's laziness. We're kind of in transition at the current period in history. I've had a lot of enforced down-time, due to my health problems. Prohibited from entering any stressful situations (like work) until at least next year. You'd likely be amazed if you truly have nothing to do, how quickly you start going out of your mind for some activity to keep you occupied. And as many hobbyists have discovered, a hobby that can't be shared is pretty boring, too. I build models, but if I can't show them off, what's the point? I want to do stuff with my life that contributes in some way, but not for financial gain (although in today's world, that would be quite necessary).
Which isn't to say I want to be constantly writing and publishing essays or whatever. There are many days that I just play video games or watch movies and accomplish nothing at all. And the compulsion to explore is how strong in humanity? The Chinese, the Polynesians, the folks who walked across the Bering land bridge to people the Americas. The Italians. The Vikings. The Portugese. The Spanish. The Romans. The Phoenicians. How many names in our heads from history class were explorers of some stripe? Cook, Vancouver, de Gama, Magellan, Colombus, Eriksson, Gagarin, Grissom, Lewis & Clark, Amundson, Curie, Einstein, Bohr, Newton, Democritus, Empedocles, Galen...
I think if we no longer had to work to survive, humanity would surprise you by what they would do. Trek's humanity didn't get a chance to sit on their asses until maybe about 2100 at the absolute earliest. All that nuclear clean-up, ya know. I think the notion of Starfleet started taking off around the time of Enterprise, but not in the manner of Enterprise. In truth, I think fandom did a far better job of setting up the formation of the Federation. A trade and mutual-defence coalition that got a shot in the arm from the Romulan Wars.
Which reminds me, when was the last time someone tried to do a comprehensive list of all of the member races and when they were first heard of or seen? Associate members? Protectorates? Nonaligned planets? Internal Threat powers? What/when were the Tarsian Wars? The Erselrope Wars? How did the Federation already know about them? Who were the respective planets' adversaries? We know the Tomed Incident was a red herring (although I did like the character development in that book), but what happened with Station Salem One? A sneak attack that incurred horrific casualties of either personnel or materi�l, obviously. But by whom? And when? And what war did it lead to?
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
Registered: Feb 2001
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quote: I build models, but if I can't show them off, what's the point? I want to do stuff with my life that contributes in some way, but not for financial gain (although in today's world, that would be quite necessary).
Not only that, but the models (whatever) you build would not really be anywhere as good as you think- comparitive inspiration and the occasional humbling moment where you realise there's sooo many betters in your field drives refinement.
Same reason why isloation leads to stagnation.
This is the true benefit of the Federation- cross-cultural diversity leading to constant change. That whole "IDIC" thing as a political mission-statement. Cool spaceships and babes in miniskirts are just a signing bonus. -------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
So, the entire population of Sol III is basicly in competition with each other to be the best, at what ever their choice is to alleviate boredom?
Competition can breed contempt, contempt can beget voilence.....
Thus the cycle would continue.
I guess my lackluster faith in the abilities of mankind to build a peaceful selfless society is showing through.
What was that job that the holo docs took over doing? Some kind of nasty job people did before that. Who did they sucker in to doing that, the mentally infirm?
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
Registered: Sep 2000
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